👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993.

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 04:31:59 GMT

bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 04:31:59 GMT

I'm working on it. It will require good, disciplined behavior by key FOSS contributors and a better copyleft license.
@dalias @cwebber @zacchiro @richardfontana

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 04:30:21 GMT

bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 04:30:21 GMT

@richardfontana

It's solved with a new copyleft-next clause I have not pitched you yet.

Remember how I keep telling we need to talk every week?

@RichardJActon @cwebber @ossguy @evan @kees

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 04:27:55 GMT

bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 04:27:55 GMT

@cwebber @adamsdesk

it is a bit fun to read that and note I was involved in some way with more than I wasn't.

Listing old patent cases is really tangential though.

@bwana @zacchiro @richardfontana

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 02:34:48 GMT

mattdm@hachyderm.io — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 02:34:48 GMT

@bkuhn @dalias @cwebber @zacchiro @richardfontana

What might those moves look like?

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 02:14:26 GMT

dalias@hachyderm.io — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 02:14:26 GMT

@cwebber @bkuhn @ossguy @richardfontana On top of "potential legal toxic waste dumps" we'd be making them known technical toxic waste dumps.

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:46:15 GMT

cwebber@social.coop — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:46:15 GMT

I assure you there are few people more familiar with those cases than @bkuhn, even if the two of us are disagreeing right now

@adamsdesk @bwana @zacchiro @richardfontana

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:43:14 GMT

cwebber@social.coop — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:43:14 GMT

@bkuhn @dalias @zacchiro @richardfontana (As in, I remember that being common with CC BY and newspapers, when I was working at Creative Commons)

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:40:22 GMT

cwebber@social.coop — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:40:22 GMT

@bkuhn @dalias @zacchiro @richardfontana I don't have them on hand, but I remember attribution enforcement with CC BY to be pretty common, particularly making newspapers update their use of "stock photo" style headers with CC BY licensed photos. I don't remember, off hand, escalation in enforcement to a court case (I feel like there may have been, but usually when attribution requirements are pointed out, people simply comply pretty quickly, since it's not hard to comply with and rarely against interests... LLMs are a change there, since there's not really a way to do so)

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:37:45 GMT

cwebber@social.coop — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:37:45 GMT

@bkuhn

> Re: “copyleft-only #LLM”: I didn't propose that. I proposed copylefting the human-modified output of LLMs.

You didn't propose it, but @ossguy brought it up here: https://fedi.copyleft.org/@ossguy/116411885602822736

You two have been speaking fairly collaboratively in this thread, so I'm assuming relatively synced at the moment. Since I presume the goal of "only train on copylefted [and implied, compatible] software" would not be, from your end, to erase copyleft, my assumption here is that the hope was that the output was also copylefted.

And I presume reading this that you do hope that would be the presumption: https://fedi.copyleft.org/@bkuhn/116428083639528264

@richardfontana @jedbrown

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:35:19 GMT

adamsdesk@fosstodon.org — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:35:19 GMT

@bkuhn This might be of interest, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_license_litigation.

@cwebber @bwana @zacchiro @richardfontana

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:21:05 GMT

[[global:guest]] — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 01:21:05 GMT

@bkuhn @zacchiro @cwebber @ossguy @richardfontana Actually, I just thought of one proprietary software company that would be much happier not to have LLMs around: Salesforce. Nobody's going to buy their overpriced shit when the alternative is to vibecode something that works exactly with your business process and that you can change, yourself, any time you want at the cost of a couple hundred bucks of Claude and a few hours of work.

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:32:53 GMT

richardfontana@mastodon.social — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:32:53 GMT

@bkuhn not sure I understand the hack. Is the hack a persuasive argument to convince FOSS community to copyleft LLM output? @RichardJActon @cwebber @ossguy @evan @kees

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:27:44 GMT

bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:27:44 GMT

@dalias

I disagree: the system never “worked”. It was always stacked against users' rights & freedom to share.

I have said elsewhere in this mega-thread: Big Tech vs. Big Content battle in the Courts has so many moving parts that we'll never predict the outcome quite right. FOSS is adrift on that sea, & we have to do the best we can now with the information we have.

As I keep saying, the boycotts have not solved the problem.

What's next?

cc: @cwebber @zacchiro @richardfontana
@kees

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:23:34 GMT

dalias@hachyderm.io — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:23:34 GMT

@bkuhn @cwebber @zacchiro @richardfontana At the time we used the existing system against itself, it was largely a working system. Corporations actually feared "IP" law. They put and and all over the place meticulously. Companies had lost theirs by not doing everything by the letter of the law in the past.

Nowadays, we hardly have a rule of law to begin with, and corporations just get to settle any infringement they're caught doing for 0.01% of the profit they made off the infringement. I don't see a way to use this system against itself. It's going to take more drastic things to tear it down.

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:19:27 GMT

bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:19:27 GMT

@dalias
Any complex public policy litigation takes ≥ 10 years to make its way through the Courts. *Thaler* was an anomaly precisely because Thaler narrowed the issue on purpose to a pointless degree (just to make a point, apparently).
The reason copyleft exists is because rather than wait for the Courts & legislature to make good law, we used the existing system against itself.

I propose we design a series of moves that can do the same for LLM-backed genAI.

@cwebber @zacchiro @richardfontana

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:16:10 GMT

bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:16:10 GMT

@dalias

Have you seen attribution lawsuits anywhere in the 50 years of the BSD license?

Of course, you have a point. But we're facing possible compulsory licensing if we don't improve our strategy. We may do the wrong thing, & if a BSD-licensed project wants to burn it down & sue a copylefted project for non-attribution infringement, let's deal with that when it comes.

& I'm speaking as one of the few who has actually been threatened with such a lawsuit.

@cwebber @zacchiro @richardfontana

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:15:54 GMT

dalias@hachyderm.io — Sun, 19 Apr 2026 00:15:54 GMT

@bkuhn @cwebber @zacchiro @richardfontana We don't see any successful litigation yet stopping abusive "AI" companies from scooping up any free software, regardless of the strength of the license. It's a matter of power imbalance and who controls the legal system, not who's right or wrong. I don't thing stronger license terms will save us. Only organizing to bring them down can do that.

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:49:37 GMT

dalias@hachyderm.io — Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:49:37 GMT

@bkuhn @cwebber @bwana @zacchiro @richardfontana Permissive licenses except extreme ones like maybe 0BSD don't allow LLM training or regurgitation either. They almost universally require copyright notice & attribution which slop can't do.

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:38:06 GMT

bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org — Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:38:06 GMT

@zleap

I've spent my whole career building organizations that could, in fact, defend against Big Tech when they trample on the FOSS community's rights.

While it's difficult work to fund, SFC has done it on a shoestring budget for two decades now, and we've yielded results that include both copyright and contract forms of litigation.

Big Tech *is* afraid of us. The mouse can roar.

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:33:51 GMT

nyc@discuss.systems — Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:33:51 GMT

@ossguy @cwebber @LordCaramac @bkuhn @richardfontana This sounds to me like the proprietary software companies are using code LLMs to mass copyright launder copyleft, GPL etc. code so as to basically incorporate it all without honouring its code (re)distribution terms. This is a grimmer situation than I had anticipated, and I'm not widely known as an optimist.

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:33:10 GMT

bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org — Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:33:10 GMT

@cwebber

If there was ever a time in 40+ years of #FOSS history to tell our #copyleft-hating FOSS friends that they erred in their license choices, now is the time.

If they don't switch, they're giving hand-outs to the proprietary software companies. Now, in an entirely new & #disturbing way.

I really think these cases where proprietary software ends up in #LLM training sets & actually creates risk are exceedingly rare, if not entirely hypothetical.

Cc: @bwana @zacchiro @richardfontana

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:32:27 GMT

mu@mastodon.nz — Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:32:27 GMT

@bkuhn @wwahammy @silverwizard @cwebber @richardfontana you seem to be caught on prissy rules of politeness rather than being able to see the meat of my argument.

If you want to give LLM advocates every accommodation, but are unwilling to do that for other people, then you are making clear your preferences on the subject in a way that shows you were never trying to understand both sides, you were never willing to move your position, and you are just pushing an agenda. All your talk of debates and understanding both sides rings hollow if you can only accept discussion in one particular format.

Hypocrite.

If I'm wrong, prove me wrong.

You're not going to.

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:29:52 GMT

trashheap@tech.lgbt — Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:29:52 GMT

@bkuhn @cwebber @evan @richardfontana @zacchiro OpenZFS is accepting LLM assisted patches today. If a CDDL project like it received non trivial near verbatim GPL code from another project via a LLM I would think that would be an issue. Or vice versa, CDDL code in a GPL project.

Reply to 👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. on Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:27:59 GMT

bkuhn@fedi.copyleft.org — Sat, 18 Apr 2026 23:27:59 GMT

@cwebber wrote:
> “ Plenty of Microsoft code has been released [publicly] under "shared source" licenses [and may well be in training sets]”
An interesting point! We should call on Microsoft to agree: if you end up with copyright violations of their source-available FOSS licenses, that they will offer a unilateral covenant-not-to-sue. They already indemnify Copilot users, but it's good advocacy tactics to point out they didn't indemnify Claude users for same.
Cc: @trwnh @richardfontana @ossguy