<![CDATA[Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that]]>Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it to
LLMs: (enable that)
Free software people: Oh no not like that

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/topic/c4e1035d-7c39-47d8-8a2d-d23a86fcb028/free-software-people-a-major-goal-of-free-software-is-for-individuals-to-be-able-to-cause-software-to-behave-in-the-way-they-want-it-tollms-enable-that-free-software-people-oh-no-not-like-thatRSS for NodeWed, 22 Apr 2026 03:44:42 GMTSat, 18 Apr 2026 08:14:40 GMT60<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 19:44:55 GMT]]>@cstross @mjg59 one icebreaker interview question I used with coders for a few years now is "do you think programming is a creative or an engineering thing? No wrong answers here!"

I think this might be a relevant question here 🙂

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://social.5f9.de/users/jollyorc/statuses/116433085778264174https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://social.5f9.de/users/jollyorc/statuses/116433085778264174Sun, 19 Apr 2026 19:44:55 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 19:40:17 GMT]]>@mjg59

I'm a full-time professional novelist. Have been for 25 years. Before that I was a software dev. From the inside, the cognitive experiences of writing prose fiction and writing software *feel identical*. The creativity exists outside the words, and most of the phrases and grammar I use are unoriginal.

Ball's back in your court.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://wandering.shop/users/cstross/statuses/116433067511146680https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://wandering.shop/users/cstross/statuses/116433067511146680Sun, 19 Apr 2026 19:40:17 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 19:18:37 GMT]]>@mjg59 i see so many people on here going on and on about how llms write bad / lazy / sloppy code, and im like, if you think that's bad hold my beer i can do _far_ worse

but yeah the gatekeeping vibes are real rn

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://social.gfsc.studio/users/kim/statuses/116432982314722090https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://social.gfsc.studio/users/kim/statuses/116432982314722090Sun, 19 Apr 2026 19:18:37 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 19:14:17 GMT]]>@mjg59 It misses the point so completely (and doesn't address any of the actual counterarguments I've seen made) that it is functionally indistinguishable from a piss take.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://infosec.exchange/users/barubary/statuses/116432965327850996https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://infosec.exchange/users/barubary/statuses/116432965327850996Sun, 19 Apr 2026 19:14:17 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 18:27:42 GMT]]>@corycarson I think the effects of all of this on the industry are terrible and also I think the arguments I feel legitimately apply to LLMs replacing the creativity of authors and composers and artists with a cheap imitation are much less strong when applied to the regurgitation of code

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432782110041485https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432782110041485Sun, 19 Apr 2026 18:27:42 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:19:37 GMT]]>@mjg59 @juliancalaby I appreciate the clarification on the scope of the disagreement. I still disagree, but you have gotten put disproportionately on blast in the replies. probably should have opened with this caveat 🙂

also despite that disagreement I think there’s an interesting aesthetic philosophy question in here and I wish we didn’t have to have this discussion while standing in the long shadow of the art-annihilating machine

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.social/users/glyph/statuses/116432514448507504https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.social/users/glyph/statuses/116432514448507504Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:19:37 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:16:25 GMT]]>@gardiner_bryant my choice of code is driven almost 100% by the desire to communicate my intention to another blob of code. My choice of words is significantly more complicated than that.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432501859535732https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432501859535732Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:16:25 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:12:34 GMT]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://hub.azkware.net/objects/6e2ecb8d-9469-e50d-0250-cda706087235https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://hub.azkware.net/objects/6e2ecb8d-9469-e50d-0250-cda706087235Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:12:34 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:11:07 GMT]]>@Ced a proprietary solution that grants the user an ability to modify free software to match their needs is worse than a free one, but it's still something that enhances that user's freedom

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432480972173994https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432480972173994Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:11:07 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:08:35 GMT]]>@juliancalaby @glyph I am absolutely not advocating for LLM use in software development in general, I am saying that the actual code is massively less creative than the majority of words or music or graphics consumed by the training and so I don't have an ethical objection *on that basis* (plenty of other ethical objections in most cases)

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432471004716220https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432471004716220Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:08:35 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:06:10 GMT]]>@MrBerard words aren't just the embodiment of a creative story, they influence how we understand and feel about it. When I read someone else's code I'm not typically feeling that dual creative nature - I'm seeing the embodiment of the creativity that created a novel algorithm or exploited hardware behaviour in an interesting way. That's what I'm interested in, not the actual lines of code that tell the compiler how to implement that.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432461505083562https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432461505083562Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:06:10 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:00:49 GMT]]>@platlas my preference would be for local models where the underlying runtime cost is more visible to users

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432440504989541https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://nondeterministic.computer/users/mjg59/statuses/116432440504989541Sun, 19 Apr 2026 17:00:49 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 16:13:46 GMT]]>@mjg59 What a bizarre take. One of those pipelines lets me feed my family, the other means layoffs for our entire sector (which is happening)

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://social.seattle.wa.us/users/corycarson/statuses/116432255486639764https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://social.seattle.wa.us/users/corycarson/statuses/116432255486639764Sun, 19 Apr 2026 16:13:46 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 13:39:16 GMT]]>
But the tech itself is not terrible, and if we can build it ethically, can be useful.
@mjg59 @Ced]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://pleroma.debian.social/objects/a009d0f9-90d9-470d-93a5-b3239b545d88https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://pleroma.debian.social/objects/a009d0f9-90d9-470d-93a5-b3239b545d88Sun, 19 Apr 2026 13:39:16 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 13:39:16 GMT]]>@Ced
I don't think that anyone is claiming that we have that today. Certainly I didn't read Matthew's post that started off this thread in that way.

There's a subset of people in the free software community that go 'all LLM bad'. I don't necessarily agree with that.
@mjg59]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://pleroma.debian.social/objects/90cf71cc-32a0-4294-ba39-e330c4d7c8cdhttps://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://pleroma.debian.social/objects/90cf71cc-32a0-4294-ba39-e330c4d7c8cdSun, 19 Apr 2026 13:39:16 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 13:20:59 GMT]]>@mjg59 for many it’s a Moral question.

There are two kinds of ‘free’ in OSS

Free as in beer: no downside you get something you didn’t have
Free as in piano: something so unwieldy you can have it if you can move it.

I’m not against free anything - but sometimes there’s a hidden cost.
We can be against hidden cost Morally *and* still enjoy free pianos - if you can move them.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://fosstodon.org/users/Stackdump/statuses/116431576047594630https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://fosstodon.org/users/Stackdump/statuses/116431576047594630Sun, 19 Apr 2026 13:20:59 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 13:04:01 GMT]]>@wouter @mjg59

I am not sure we disagree, I do agree on the fact that a tools that allow anyone to modify programs for their own needs is exactly what free software is about.

I disagree that what we have today is that though, feels more like a free drug for kids program right now.

To build domestic of them efficiently we would need to understand how they work… should not stop anyone of course.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.sdf.org/users/Ced/statuses/116431509337971865https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.sdf.org/users/Ced/statuses/116431509337971865Sun, 19 Apr 2026 13:04:01 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 12:56:01 GMT]]>@mjg59 @Nfoonf Paying *people* to code for you: good. You provide income to a person who you can meet and respect and be colleagues with.

Paying OpenAI to code for you: bad. Coding is another rent seeking capitalist nightmare and enriches no one in your local economy.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.social/users/woltiv/statuses/116431477922937640https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.social/users/woltiv/statuses/116431477922937640Sun, 19 Apr 2026 12:56:01 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 12:46:30 GMT]]>@mjg59 I don't read other people's code save for documentation and snippets on StackExchange. That's not to say my code is unique, but saying "every line of code I write is a copy of someone else's" is more or less true about virtually every sentence ever committed to paper. Doesn't make your creativity any less valid. Doesn't make the problem you're solving or the app your building any less unique.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.online/users/gardiner_bryant/statuses/116431440488956597https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.online/users/gardiner_bryant/statuses/116431440488956597Sun, 19 Apr 2026 12:46:30 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 12:44:35 GMT]]>@mjg59 as a writer and a coder, I have to say that there *is* a creative aspect to both and the same regions of my brain light up when I'm writing either. Code just have exacting syntax that must be obeyed.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.online/users/gardiner_bryant/statuses/116431432958384291https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.online/users/gardiner_bryant/statuses/116431432958384291Sun, 19 Apr 2026 12:44:35 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 12:41:57 GMT]]>@mjg59 🤡

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://chaos.social/users/soc/statuses/116431422615794898https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://chaos.social/users/soc/statuses/116431422615794898Sun, 19 Apr 2026 12:41:57 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 12:26:52 GMT]]>@mjg59 bruh, masons spend their days gluing one brick on top of another and even they are aware that they can create beauty. Just because your projects have all the living energy of roadkill doesn't mean the rest of us are at that level.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://bayes.club/users/wronglang/statuses/116431363293921366https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://bayes.club/users/wronglang/statuses/116431363293921366Sun, 19 Apr 2026 12:26:52 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 11:49:13 GMT]]>@phooky @mjg59 But that also includes the people who like using AIs for part of it; whichever part they're not particularly interested in.

]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.org.uk/users/penguin42/statuses/116431215260019069https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://mastodon.org.uk/users/penguin42/statuses/116431215260019069Sun, 19 Apr 2026 11:49:13 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Free software people: A major goal of free software is for individuals to be able to cause software to behave in the way they want it toLLMs: (enable that)Free software people: Oh no not like that on Sun, 19 Apr 2026 11:43:56 GMT]]>@Ced
and (b) them wanting to serve millions of users which requires more compute, than it is about limitations inherent in the technology.

All you need to replicate this is a sufficiently large data set, a bit of compute time, and an open source license.
@mjg59]]>https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://pleroma.debian.social/objects/4d1fc770-5883-4a99-a9a3-09f5816798b2https://forum.fedi.dk/post/https://pleroma.debian.social/objects/4d1fc770-5883-4a99-a9a3-09f5816798b2Sun, 19 Apr 2026 11:43:56 GMT