Please understand that I'm doing this with considerable regret, but I have no choice but to declare my most recent & serious attempt to #SwitchToLinux a failure.
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@carla @lcruggeri @joe_vinegar I'd like to tell you what specifically didn't work, but I don't need this turning into a pileup on that thing/the distro or an advice column.
I can say that it's not a peripheral; it's a fairly popular native app that won't communicate with certain parts of the system. I'ts not a weird niche thing & it seems to work for many users but also not for many others & nobody can say why; a few general tips that should work but don't & then the forum threads go silent.
@jwcph @lcruggeri @joe_vinegar Is there a certain reason that you don't give the name of the application? I'm always really interested what other people do with their computers. I promise, I will not give you any advice if you do not want that.
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@jwcph @carla @joe_vinegar you may always virtualize a Windows system if needed
@lcruggeri @carla @joe_vinegar Why the fuck would I want a Windows system!?
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@jwcph @lcruggeri @joe_vinegar Is there a certain reason that you don't give the name of the application? I'm always really interested what other people do with their computers. I promise, I will not give you any advice if you do not want that.
@carla @lcruggeri @joe_vinegar I'm sure you will keep that promise - but other people might find this thread & like I said, I don't want it to turn into that discussion. If you want to know, there are other posts on my profile with the tag #SwitchToLinux where I get slightly more specific
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Please understand that I'm doing this with considerable regret, but I have no choice but to declare my most recent & serious attempt to #SwitchToLinux a failure.
Blame me if you will, but for anyone with my non-trivial computer skills or less, "Just switch to #Linux" is utterly off the table.
I literally had ONE thing that needed to work & it just doesn't. For me. If it was me being unreasonable... but no, it's possible, just not for me. Which is just too random to be acceptable.
@jwcph my sympathies! A lot of things on Linux either "just work" like magic or turn out to be a tangle of intractable issues (generally not on its end, but that doesn't matter on the user end) that take outsize effort to debug with little hope of the effort being rewarded. That can actually be a feature for people with the time, inclination, and skills to go chasing down rabbit holes in search of a solution, but for the rest of us who just want things to work and don't have a bunch of spare computers to experiment and cobble with, just the one machine we have to earn a living on, it's a non-starter.
(For anyone inclined to rebut, I say this as someone who happily runs a 2015 model Macbook Air on Linux, Arch btw, as my daily driver. I love the experience and desktop usability for Linux has come a long way, but it's definitely not for everyone.)
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Please understand that I'm doing this with considerable regret, but I have no choice but to declare my most recent & serious attempt to #SwitchToLinux a failure.
Blame me if you will, but for anyone with my non-trivial computer skills or less, "Just switch to #Linux" is utterly off the table.
I literally had ONE thing that needed to work & it just doesn't. For me. If it was me being unreasonable... but no, it's possible, just not for me. Which is just too random to be acceptable.
@jwcph Thanks for your courage in sharing this here in the Fediverse (seriously).
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@jwcph Thanks for your courage in sharing this here in the Fediverse (seriously).
@ShaulaEvans I do brace myself every time
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J jwcph@helvede.net shared this topic
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@jwcph my sympathies! A lot of things on Linux either "just work" like magic or turn out to be a tangle of intractable issues (generally not on its end, but that doesn't matter on the user end) that take outsize effort to debug with little hope of the effort being rewarded. That can actually be a feature for people with the time, inclination, and skills to go chasing down rabbit holes in search of a solution, but for the rest of us who just want things to work and don't have a bunch of spare computers to experiment and cobble with, just the one machine we have to earn a living on, it's a non-starter.
(For anyone inclined to rebut, I say this as someone who happily runs a 2015 model Macbook Air on Linux, Arch btw, as my daily driver. I love the experience and desktop usability for Linux has come a long way, but it's definitely not for everyone.)
@ljwrites Thank you, the way you describe it is exactly right! You could argue that in my own current situation, probably like 99.9% of trying to get Linux going works flawlessly - but that .1% that doesn't...?
That One Thing
️ won't always be a full-on dealbreaker like in my case, but it's pro'lly going to be a stone in your shoe (I've seen threads on things like wonky mouse operation, faulty screen resolution etc.) & sussing it out can quickly turn into a full-time job... 
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@jwcph my sympathies! A lot of things on Linux either "just work" like magic or turn out to be a tangle of intractable issues (generally not on its end, but that doesn't matter on the user end) that take outsize effort to debug with little hope of the effort being rewarded. That can actually be a feature for people with the time, inclination, and skills to go chasing down rabbit holes in search of a solution, but for the rest of us who just want things to work and don't have a bunch of spare computers to experiment and cobble with, just the one machine we have to earn a living on, it's a non-starter.
(For anyone inclined to rebut, I say this as someone who happily runs a 2015 model Macbook Air on Linux, Arch btw, as my daily driver. I love the experience and desktop usability for Linux has come a long way, but it's definitely not for everyone.)
@ljwrites @jwcph I agree. For the sake of who may read #SwitchToLinux threads I just want to add that it's a more general issue of the #opensource software development and distribution model.
The sentence "the stuff on/with #linux either works from the start like magic, or can require significant effort (and frustration) and not be even granted success in the end" is better framed if one substitutes "linux" with "windows" or "mac os". The main difference is that with opensource we are not paying for any of the development, distribution, maintenance activities of the code base (differently from the other mentioned cases). It's a gift economy. And yet we expect it to work (and it 99% does work!). 1/ -
@ljwrites @jwcph I agree. For the sake of who may read #SwitchToLinux threads I just want to add that it's a more general issue of the #opensource software development and distribution model.
The sentence "the stuff on/with #linux either works from the start like magic, or can require significant effort (and frustration) and not be even granted success in the end" is better framed if one substitutes "linux" with "windows" or "mac os". The main difference is that with opensource we are not paying for any of the development, distribution, maintenance activities of the code base (differently from the other mentioned cases). It's a gift economy. And yet we expect it to work (and it 99% does work!). 1/@ljwrites @jwcph I suspect that stuff "just works" under windows or macOS because it's where the 98% of customers are, so the software house either fixes the issue or is instantly out of the market (and out of business together).
In the #opensource "market" everybody expects to get software for free, fixes and features included: where's the incentive for the developers / software house?
And still, despite this stark difference, I find it amazing that stuff exists and works at all in the opensource #giftEconomy world.
And I don't know what your experience is with windows or macOS, but given the costs of the licenses (with mac embedded in the hardware) when something doesn't work like magic from the start, how often did you obtain a successful solution? After having pre-paid for it? 2/2 -
@ljwrites @jwcph I suspect that stuff "just works" under windows or macOS because it's where the 98% of customers are, so the software house either fixes the issue or is instantly out of the market (and out of business together).
In the #opensource "market" everybody expects to get software for free, fixes and features included: where's the incentive for the developers / software house?
And still, despite this stark difference, I find it amazing that stuff exists and works at all in the opensource #giftEconomy world.
And I don't know what your experience is with windows or macOS, but given the costs of the licenses (with mac embedded in the hardware) when something doesn't work like magic from the start, how often did you obtain a successful solution? After having pre-paid for it? 2/2@joe_vinegar @jwcph the question of how well I was supported by Apple is answerable by the fact that my Macbook Air is now an Archbook Air
circa 2020 and Catalina, iirc, the Mac OS updates got too heavy for my 2015 Air so I said "fuck it" and made the move to Linux rather than buy a new computer. I even got a DisplayLink external monitor supported, and made a contribution to the Arch Wiki when I started having issues with monitor support and discovered a driver issue by digging around. It's really an amazing community and effort and I was happy to contribute my time & effort. I've donated to Arch development, too, though nowhere nearly as much as they deserve. -
@joe_vinegar @jwcph the question of how well I was supported by Apple is answerable by the fact that my Macbook Air is now an Archbook Air
circa 2020 and Catalina, iirc, the Mac OS updates got too heavy for my 2015 Air so I said "fuck it" and made the move to Linux rather than buy a new computer. I even got a DisplayLink external monitor supported, and made a contribution to the Arch Wiki when I started having issues with monitor support and discovered a driver issue by digging around. It's really an amazing community and effort and I was happy to contribute my time & effort. I've donated to Arch development, too, though nowhere nearly as much as they deserve.@ljwrites @joe_vinegar None of that is wrong, but it entirely skirts the point of "Just switch to Linux", which is an almost unavoidable response when airing the slightest Win or Mac problems, especially in the fediverse.
The main reason Win/Mac works for most people is that *it was explicitly built to work for most people*. That was (!) an overarching strategy & somebody was responsible for it. This is not the case in FOSS & maybe can't be - but if so, most users are fundamentally excluded.
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@ljwrites @joe_vinegar None of that is wrong, but it entirely skirts the point of "Just switch to Linux", which is an almost unavoidable response when airing the slightest Win or Mac problems, especially in the fediverse.
The main reason Win/Mac works for most people is that *it was explicitly built to work for most people*. That was (!) an overarching strategy & somebody was responsible for it. This is not the case in FOSS & maybe can't be - but if so, most users are fundamentally excluded.
@jwcph @joe_vinegar Yeah, most people in my circumstances would have simply gotten a new Windows or Mac computer and I'd argue that's actually the reasonable thing for them to do. Many people *have* to have a Windows or Mac computer for work--I use a Windows computer myself for brief but critical work tasks even though I stay in my Linux setup as much as possible.
And this effective duopoly of commercial OSes gets serious because without effective competition/consumer oversight this overbearing market position becomes a means to exploit consumers, like Windows increasingly becoming becoming a wrapper for Copilot or both platforms leveraging their dominance to pressure users into buying cloud services. And this is just on desktop, I'm not even getting into the smartphone or other devices situation because ugh headache.
These practices are not going to get better unless more robust regulatory checks are made, because there's no money in someone buying a Windows or Mac computer and then using it for the next 10, 15 years. Users "have" to be turned into paying subscribers or milked for data for more profits. Linux is the biggest OS that doesn't do that, and as things currently stand is effectively unavailable to most users. Much as with the fediverse, some of the most privileged and savviest users can get excellent service and privacy but the bulk of users are left to fend for themselves and that's not acceptable to me.
Individual solutions that rely on individual privilege can't be systematic solutions that benefit everyone, hence the tl; dr: The solution is regulation of the commercial OSes and possibly hardware manufacturers, not just people switching to Linux. I wouldn't say no to better public support & funding of Linux, either.
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@lcruggeri @carla @joe_vinegar Why the fuck would I want a Windows system!?
@jwcph @lcruggeri @carla @joe_vinegar Because most people running into this sort of problem are coming from windows. If you're not, you could just say that instead of cursing at someone.
There's no need to be rude.
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@jwcph @lcruggeri @carla @joe_vinegar Because most people running into this sort of problem are coming from windows. If you're not, you could just say that instead of cursing at someone.
There's no need to be rude.
@cocaine_owlbear You came into my thread of your own accord - if you don't like cursing you're clearly in the wrong place & you can just leave. There's no need to wag your finger.
