Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
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Using AI coding agents is a position of every computer programmer that gives them an honest trial, in the last six months.
The progress has been jaw dropping.
Good on you, good luck to you, but asking me not to use them is analogous to asking a carpenter not to use power tools
It is a good analogy, because just like power tools, if you do not know how to construct abstract logical systems, agents will get you in a terrible mess (but won't cut off any fingers)!
Omish people have NOT been using power tools for centries and they make the best products in the world.
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@leeloo @UlrikNyman @jaredwhite I like that anology. Learning to program is very similar to training a muscle. That will not happen by using LLMs, similar to a sports student won’t gain muscles by driving around in a car…
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
Do simple Languages like VBA, VB.Net and Skriptlanguages like JavaScript count as Coding too?
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@diazona @AgentOrange96 I'm intentionally not trying to lay out a series of pedantic rules…
Here's a previous response which might clarify: https://indieweb.social/@jaredwhite/116993388938146986
Also it doesn't have to apply to *everything* you might do now or in the future, just that you can point to a tangible software project(s) being used "in production" which can be credibly claimed was hand-coded that you stand by.
@jaredwhite @AgentOrange96 Thanks for the info! I had actually read that response and didn't feel like it cleared things up - like, is it supposed to apply to every repo we create? Or just every public repo? Or a majority of repos with occasional exceptions allowed? Does it count software we partially contribute to or just software we maintain? What about projects done at work or on commission?
Not to say I expect you to answer all these questions; I totally understand wanting to leave the criteria a bit open-ended and just see what happens. It's just that, based on what I've seen, I can't tell if I'm eligible to join this list, so I won't.
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Using AI coding agents is a position of every computer programmer that gives them an honest trial, in the last six months.
The progress has been jaw dropping.
Good on you, good luck to you, but asking me not to use them is analogous to asking a carpenter not to use power tools
It is a good analogy, because just like power tools, if you do not know how to construct abstract logical systems, agents will get you in a terrible mess (but won't cut off any fingers)!
-
Using AI coding agents is a position of every computer programmer that gives them an honest trial, in the last six months.
The progress has been jaw dropping.
Good on you, good luck to you, but asking me not to use them is analogous to asking a carpenter not to use power tools
It is a good analogy, because just like power tools, if you do not know how to construct abstract logical systems, agents will get you in a terrible mess (but won't cut off any fingers)!
@worik @jaredwhite @justbob Functionally, I think comparing AI agents to power tools is a fair comparison. I like using power tools, but I know when to reach for a manual screwdriver, and I feel the same way about LLMs and agents of roughly the past half year.
One large issue with LLM assisted programming is its energy usage. I think the comparison is actually also pretty fair for that: powertools use more planetary resources and more energy, and they wreck the environment in many ways, especially if you consider that heavy machinery is just scaled-up powertools.
However, the metaphor kind of breaks when it comes to the other costs, both economic and societal. When I buy a power tool, I can keep using it until it breaks. Fortunately no subscriptions (yet). For the agentic LLM workflow to be fast enough, and for the powertool comparison to hold, you need a subscription from one of the big companies. Then there's copyright issues, loss of human skills, loss of jobs, etc, etc. I think it's completely reasonable to keep coding the "artisanal" way, as it is completely reasonable to eat vegan and to not travel needlessly.
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@jaredwhite why not go straight to binary?
@crumbletiltskin I can express complex abstract logical thought processes using an English-like grammar in binary?!
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Do simple Languages like VBA, VB.Net and Skriptlanguages like JavaScript count as Coding too?
@Derek_DIY of course! writing HTML or CSS also!
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite This is such the perfect excuse to finally sign up to @Codeberg
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite awesome stuff!!
I'll be submitting my name soon
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite this is awesome! AFK for the night but will sign tomorrow
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite is there more exact info on what this list implies? I don't want to add myself if I'm not supposed to.
1. I currently rarely use LLMs when the web search just super fails me, about 1-2 tiimes a month, to locate a tech source.
2. If somebody brought forward LLM-located bugs I would fix them (without using LLMs for the fix, of course).
3. And perhaps I could see myself have a local LLM point out problem spots without letting it make a fix suggestion. Although currently I have no plans for that either, but who knows I suppose.
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite
Added my pull request, including a typo in the README, the proof that your initiative was handcrafted
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@jaredwhite is there more exact info on what this list implies? I don't want to add myself if I'm not supposed to.
1. I currently rarely use LLMs when the web search just super fails me, about 1-2 tiimes a month, to locate a tech source.
2. If somebody brought forward LLM-located bugs I would fix them (without using LLMs for the fix, of course).
3. And perhaps I could see myself have a local LLM point out problem spots without letting it make a fix suggestion. Although currently I have no plans for that either, but who knows I suppose.
@ell1e @jaredwhite I'm slightly further compromised in that I am subject to an AI mandate at work, and have a couple of LLM assisted projects and some LLM assisted patches ...
I try to keep most of my projects LLM free though so I'm assuming that's fine, but I would love to have some clarification too
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Using AI coding agents is a position of every computer programmer that gives them an honest trial, in the last six months.
The progress has been jaw dropping.
Good on you, good luck to you, but asking me not to use them is analogous to asking a carpenter not to use power tools
It is a good analogy, because just like power tools, if you do not know how to construct abstract logical systems, agents will get you in a terrible mess (but won't cut off any fingers)!
@worik @jaredwhite @justbob Whether #AI produces good code is about LEAST important thing about it! Enormous security issues it creates are also "meh". Even art.
The fact that it destroys human brain (Cognitive Surrender is as bad for your mind as being Couch Potato is for your body), and its ENORMOUS environmental cost are much higher on the list!
Imagine if using your power-screwdriver would deprive hundreds of humans from having enough drinking water to survive. Would you still use it?
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@worik @jaredwhite @justbob Whether #AI produces good code is about LEAST important thing about it! Enormous security issues it creates are also "meh". Even art.
The fact that it destroys human brain (Cognitive Surrender is as bad for your mind as being Couch Potato is for your body), and its ENORMOUS environmental cost are much higher on the list!
Imagine if using your power-screwdriver would deprive hundreds of humans from having enough drinking water to survive. Would you still use it?
@worik @jaredwhite @justbob And that is just the top of the list of the problems! Enormous societal problems #AI creates - from loss of artists, people being replaced by machines, job losses and ensuing economy crash like we've never witnessed, loss of institutional knowledge making it nigh impossible to restart civilization when everybody understands the problem we've created for ourselves (unless that bubble bursts VERY SOON).
And all that is BEFORE someone gets idea to abuse it for scams.
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite paging @brib feels like this ties in super well with your slop free tool list
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@jaredwhite I assume that you mean without AI?
But with compilers on a computer and not with pen and paper.
What is the main motivation for not using LLMs as part of the development process?
I am asking mainly to understand as I am head of studies at a department of computer science and we are currently getting ready to put more coding with LLMs into courses.
@UlrikNyman @jaredwhite Jeg har undervist andre i software udvikling. Og AI frityresteger folks hjerner. (Og lærer dem dårlige design patterns.)
Hvis eleverne ikke lærer at tænke abstrakt om kode, så er jeres undervisningsmateriale ubrugeligt.
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@UlrikNyman @jaredwhite Jeg har undervist andre i software udvikling. Og AI frityresteger folks hjerner. (Og lærer dem dårlige design patterns.)
Hvis eleverne ikke lærer at tænke abstrakt om kode, så er jeres undervisningsmateriale ubrugeligt.
@UlrikNyman @jaredwhite at deprogrammere alt det dårlige information som AI giver folk tager langt mere tid og energi end at undervise dem ordenligt fra start.
Den kognitive overgivelse som kommer som et resultat gør det også svært for eleverne at lære nye koncepter, hvilket udruster dem dårligt til arbejdsmarkedet.
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@jaredwhite I assume that you mean without AI?
But with compilers on a computer and not with pen and paper.
What is the main motivation for not using LLMs as part of the development process?
I am asking mainly to understand as I am head of studies at a department of computer science and we are currently getting ready to put more coding with LLMs into courses.
@UlrikNyman @jaredwhite Your question led to an interesting thread. Thank you!
