The thing about saying trans women are “socialized male” is that it’s a fundamentally anti-feminist stance.
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@FinalGirl I was only "socialized male" in the sense that a wrongfully convicted person is socialized Into prison culture.
@burnoutqueen @theogrin @FinalGirl
I am (cis) male and I feel the same way. -
The thing about saying trans women are “socialized male” is that it’s a fundamentally anti-feminist stance. If all it took to make someone irretrievably gendered was a bit of socialization, then cis women fighting against patriarchy with be a lost cause since they are socialized female in a society build around the belief they are and will always be less. The belief that we are nothing but socialization is just masked patriarchy.
@FinalGirl this is a much better take on the idea than where I see most people go with it. Appreciate this framing a lot
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The thing about saying trans women are “socialized male” is that it’s a fundamentally anti-feminist stance. If all it took to make someone irretrievably gendered was a bit of socialization, then cis women fighting against patriarchy with be a lost cause since they are socialized female in a society build around the belief they are and will always be less. The belief that we are nothing but socialization is just masked patriarchy.
@FinalGirl yes patriarchy does the socializing but I think this attempts to over simplify and also erase trans masc experience. I was socialized female. I am proof that just being socialized a gender does not make you that gender or force you into an inferior or superior role. However I was very much socialized female and it impacts me still to this day. 11 years into transition.
Edit: to clarify I’m not getting into whether trans fems were male socialized. Just that it’s a common experience and thought among trans mascs that we were female socialized and you’re trying to ditch that all together but I can be socialized one way and still be a man. You can be socialized one way and still break out of it.
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@FinalGirl yes patriarchy does the socializing but I think this attempts to over simplify and also erase trans masc experience. I was socialized female. I am proof that just being socialized a gender does not make you that gender or force you into an inferior or superior role. However I was very much socialized female and it impacts me still to this day. 11 years into transition.
Edit: to clarify I’m not getting into whether trans fems were male socialized. Just that it’s a common experience and thought among trans mascs that we were female socialized and you’re trying to ditch that all together but I can be socialized one way and still be a man. You can be socialized one way and still break out of it.
@Melezioh @FinalGirl my trans-masc (ish) kid and I were talking about this the other day, after some extreme drama in their friend group
and they said they feel strongly they were socialized female -- because they're also autistic and I spent so many years trying to help them learn how to confirm to enough Girl Social Norms that they would get bullied and harassed at school less often
they said maybe others don't have an experience they want to call that
but I really did
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The thing about saying trans women are “socialized male” is that it’s a fundamentally anti-feminist stance. If all it took to make someone irretrievably gendered was a bit of socialization, then cis women fighting against patriarchy with be a lost cause since they are socialized female in a society build around the belief they are and will always be less. The belief that we are nothing but socialization is just masked patriarchy.
@FinalGirl Transphobia in general is irreconcilable with feminism because transphobia is fundamentally sexist. Someone who really believes in gender or sex equality wouldn't have problems with people changing genders (or choosing to have none or multiple or unconventional ones), and they certainly wouldn't constantly reinvent sex essentialism from different angles (souls, genes, bones, socialization... the list goes on).
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@FinalGirl yes patriarchy does the socializing but I think this attempts to over simplify and also erase trans masc experience. I was socialized female. I am proof that just being socialized a gender does not make you that gender or force you into an inferior or superior role. However I was very much socialized female and it impacts me still to this day. 11 years into transition.
Edit: to clarify I’m not getting into whether trans fems were male socialized. Just that it’s a common experience and thought among trans mascs that we were female socialized and you’re trying to ditch that all together but I can be socialized one way and still be a man. You can be socialized one way and still break out of it.
@Melezioh “among trans mascs that we were female socialized and you’re trying to ditch that all together”
Before I respond in full and risk entering a polarized infective, I want to clarify you believe that by limiting my original comment to the context that my argument was based on—that trans femmes are socialized male in a deterministic and immutable way, and thus will never be women—you believe I was purposely rejecting the experience of everyone else.
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The thing about saying trans women are “socialized male” is that it’s a fundamentally anti-feminist stance. If all it took to make someone irretrievably gendered was a bit of socialization, then cis women fighting against patriarchy with be a lost cause since they are socialized female in a society build around the belief they are and will always be less. The belief that we are nothing but socialization is just masked patriarchy.
In my experience, most of the behavior patterns that drive the “socialized male” argument as a rejection of trans femininity are at least as much based in race as in gender. There is an aspect of centering that I honestly see more related to whiteness than femininity. I feel like this is further promoted by the visibility of white trans people in comparison to others.
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@Melezioh “among trans mascs that we were female socialized and you’re trying to ditch that all together”
Before I respond in full and risk entering a polarized infective, I want to clarify you believe that by limiting my original comment to the context that my argument was based on—that trans femmes are socialized male in a deterministic and immutable way, and thus will never be women—you believe I was purposely rejecting the experience of everyone else.
@FinalGirl I think I’m confused by what you are trying to say in this comment. I think you are saying that based on your post I read it as basically denying others lived experience to avoid saying trans fems are socialized male. It sounds like you were saying that, without the immutable, etc. it came off as you making an argument against the existence gender socialization all together and so ignoring the fact that trans mascs very much were female socialized and will tell you so. I’m sure cis women would say the same.
If you were just meaning it as gender socialization is not immutable or permanent making it impossible to the truly be a woman as a trans woman that is not how it came off. As I said in my comment I am fully a man as a trans man but I was socialized female and that does effect me.
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The thing about saying trans women are “socialized male” is that it’s a fundamentally anti-feminist stance. If all it took to make someone irretrievably gendered was a bit of socialization, then cis women fighting against patriarchy with be a lost cause since they are socialized female in a society build around the belief they are and will always be less. The belief that we are nothing but socialization is just masked patriarchy.
@FinalGirl im socialized evil
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The thing about saying trans women are “socialized male” is that it’s a fundamentally anti-feminist stance. If all it took to make someone irretrievably gendered was a bit of socialization, then cis women fighting against patriarchy with be a lost cause since they are socialized female in a society build around the belief they are and will always be less. The belief that we are nothing but socialization is just masked patriarchy.
@FinalGirl I support socialized mail 100% also the post office should offer nationalized server space like AWS wait what were we talking about
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The thing about saying trans women are “socialized male” is that it’s a fundamentally anti-feminist stance. If all it took to make someone irretrievably gendered was a bit of socialization, then cis women fighting against patriarchy with be a lost cause since they are socialized female in a society build around the belief they are and will always be less. The belief that we are nothing but socialization is just masked patriarchy.
@FinalGirl ofc, "male" and "female" socialization are just as individual as anyone's life experiences. you can't really neatly put people into those boxes. these are useful tools for analysis though, after all, many issues stem from how people are socialized.
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In my experience, most of the behavior patterns that drive the “socialized male” argument as a rejection of trans femininity are at least as much based in race as in gender. There is an aspect of centering that I honestly see more related to whiteness than femininity. I feel like this is further promoted by the visibility of white trans people in comparison to others.
White people tend to have an expectation of centering and implicit respect. This is especially true of the white male experience. And this is something that has to be processed and re-interpreted by white trans femmes. Often, they reject it.
We see this in the pattern of white trans femmes treating certain inconveniences as if they are extremely damaging and emotionally horrendous experiences. In truth, they probably are—to them—because they have rarely lived an existence where such experiences are normalized.
It’s no surprise that the trans femmes who are most separatist are also often the ones who are most racist. They are simply holding on to the centering.
Unless race is processed, this pattern tends to dominate. But it’s often seen (esp. by white cis women) as “male.” The better framing is “socialized in power.”
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White people tend to have an expectation of centering and implicit respect. This is especially true of the white male experience. And this is something that has to be processed and re-interpreted by white trans femmes. Often, they reject it.
We see this in the pattern of white trans femmes treating certain inconveniences as if they are extremely damaging and emotionally horrendous experiences. In truth, they probably are—to them—because they have rarely lived an existence where such experiences are normalized.
It’s no surprise that the trans femmes who are most separatist are also often the ones who are most racist. They are simply holding on to the centering.
Unless race is processed, this pattern tends to dominate. But it’s often seen (esp. by white cis women) as “male.” The better framing is “socialized in power.”
Misgendering? That’s bread and butter for Black women, for Pacific Islander women. To treat it as if it’s an absolute moral failure when it happens to a white trans femme ignores the racial hegemony of the system. “I should never be misgendered” is a less effective statement if you never process whiteness because it’s whiteness that is effecting you in that moment.
So often I see people map white trans femininity (or, rather, their rejectionist attitudes towards it) onto PoC trans women, as if our experiences are analogous. We neve had a chance to fit in to this society, so we come to trans femininity already de-centered. Living in a Black male experience was one where we were centered only as a threat or an other. At best, I was “exotic,” and fetishized.
It’s simply a different experience. In a way, armored and prepared for othering.
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The thing about saying trans women are “socialized male” is that it’s a fundamentally anti-feminist stance. If all it took to make someone irretrievably gendered was a bit of socialization, then cis women fighting against patriarchy with be a lost cause since they are socialized female in a society build around the belief they are and will always be less. The belief that we are nothing but socialization is just masked patriarchy.
@FinalGirl@blackqueer.life
Transphobes: Biologically Basic Biology Biologically says that biologically trans "women" are biologically male and biologically cannot biologically change to be anything other than biologically male. It's just biology!
Also transphobes: Oh, you used medicine to change your biology? Well you're still socialized male! -
@FinalGirl I think I’m confused by what you are trying to say in this comment. I think you are saying that based on your post I read it as basically denying others lived experience to avoid saying trans fems are socialized male. It sounds like you were saying that, without the immutable, etc. it came off as you making an argument against the existence gender socialization all together and so ignoring the fact that trans mascs very much were female socialized and will tell you so. I’m sure cis women would say the same.
If you were just meaning it as gender socialization is not immutable or permanent making it impossible to the truly be a woman as a trans woman that is not how it came off. As I said in my comment I am fully a man as a trans man but I was socialized female and that does effect me.
@Melezioh If, rather than inquiring about the context of a statement, you inject the context you want to that statement, and then argue against that injected context, that is called A Straw Man. You don't have to make a straw man of my argument.
I was writing a comment about an experience I kept having, and limiting my comment to that experience. The "socialized male" argument is entirely used as an exclusionary framing that rejects trans femininity on the grounds that socialization is both deterministic and immutable. That context was embedded because in this discussion that is, for the most part, understood.
The fact that I did not add every minute detail to that comment is because it was made in a fedi post. This is not a published essay, where I would have fleshed out far more of the necessary context that the reader required. This limiting of context is something you also did in your reply, since I could similarly embed my own context that you are erasing other experiences simply because you did not specifically discuss them, and then argue against that injected context.
Rather than immediately attack me by telling me I am "trying to ditch" your experiece, you could have assumed that me saying I love pancakes didn't mean I hated waffles. You could have simply asked for the context and sought clarification. If you had done so, you would find that what I was saying in my original post was in agreement with the last two sentences of your reply, and that there was never an argument to be had.
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Misgendering? That’s bread and butter for Black women, for Pacific Islander women. To treat it as if it’s an absolute moral failure when it happens to a white trans femme ignores the racial hegemony of the system. “I should never be misgendered” is a less effective statement if you never process whiteness because it’s whiteness that is effecting you in that moment.
So often I see people map white trans femininity (or, rather, their rejectionist attitudes towards it) onto PoC trans women, as if our experiences are analogous. We neve had a chance to fit in to this society, so we come to trans femininity already de-centered. Living in a Black male experience was one where we were centered only as a threat or an other. At best, I was “exotic,” and fetishized.
It’s simply a different experience. In a way, armored and prepared for othering.
@FinalGirl My opinion (as a black trans woman) is that no trans person, regardless of race, deserves to be misgendered, ever. Racism unfortunately makes Black trans women more likely than white trans women to get misgendered and treated as a male threat, and it makes me dysphoric. -
@Melezioh "How am I supposed to know you meant something different?"
You ask. You seek clarification. You talk about it instead of going straight to accusations of intentional erasure.
The fact is that me limiting my post to trans femininity was specifically because I was talking about an explicitly trans feminine aspect regarding the rejection of trans femininity on the grounds of a deterministic and immutable socialization. And in fact I was limiting my post to that specifically because I was leading toward a discussion of the overlay of racism onto trans femininity. Like I barely started and you're on me, bruh.
I was not "ignoring" you any more than I was "ignoring" latine trans femmes in my argument. It's just not the context of my experience nor the one I can talk to in this moment. I was limiting my argument to the context I was discussing… which we literally must do to frame anything.
Like dude I appreciate you are sensitive to exclusion, but coming straight at me with "you're trying to ditch that all together" puts me immediately in a position of enmity that was never necessary.
Just ask.
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White people tend to have an expectation of centering and implicit respect. This is especially true of the white male experience. And this is something that has to be processed and re-interpreted by white trans femmes. Often, they reject it.
We see this in the pattern of white trans femmes treating certain inconveniences as if they are extremely damaging and emotionally horrendous experiences. In truth, they probably are—to them—because they have rarely lived an existence where such experiences are normalized.
It’s no surprise that the trans femmes who are most separatist are also often the ones who are most racist. They are simply holding on to the centering.
Unless race is processed, this pattern tends to dominate. But it’s often seen (esp. by white cis women) as “male.” The better framing is “socialized in power.”
@FinalGirl @rusty__shackleford
Thank you for wording this far better than I did:
RE: https://mastodon.social/@rusty__shackleford/115925696178452244
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@FinalGirl My opinion (as a black trans woman) is that no trans person, regardless of race, deserves to be misgendered, ever. Racism unfortunately makes Black trans women more likely than white trans women to get misgendered and treated as a male threat, and it makes me dysphoric.
@LunaDragofelis I, of course, never implied that anyone deserves to be misgendered.
My statement was that, as a class, Black folk, including cis Black folk, experience more oppression than white trans people ever will. But that the experience of many white trans people seems to be one of seeing those experiences as analogous–or, often, winning "the oppression olympics"–more than actually fighting the forces that imprison all of us. Since those forces still have a protective effect on them.
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Misgendering? That’s bread and butter for Black women, for Pacific Islander women. To treat it as if it’s an absolute moral failure when it happens to a white trans femme ignores the racial hegemony of the system. “I should never be misgendered” is a less effective statement if you never process whiteness because it’s whiteness that is effecting you in that moment.
So often I see people map white trans femininity (or, rather, their rejectionist attitudes towards it) onto PoC trans women, as if our experiences are analogous. We neve had a chance to fit in to this society, so we come to trans femininity already de-centered. Living in a Black male experience was one where we were centered only as a threat or an other. At best, I was “exotic,” and fetishized.
It’s simply a different experience. In a way, armored and prepared for othering.
@FinalGirl when the thread about this was popping off the other day and I was too mentally fatigued to form decent sentences, this was exactly one of the things I wanted to bring up about why we need to talk about socialization not as some property of a person but as processes of power flowing through relations, and why we should instead consider what question a person is really talking about when they bring up “male socialization” of trans women. Because like you said, to grow up being perceived as a Black boy or man is a very very different experience than growing up as a white boy or man, and there is a HUGE assumption there about what male socialization means as being about hegemonic masculinity.
