“nothing that can be done about this” says guy who caused this and derogatorily called anyone who doesn’t like it an SJW
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LLMs are very good at filing the serial numbers off of things for plagiarism purposes, but expect the parts of Linux with any structure at all to look a lot like bits of BSD, bits of AT&T Unix, bits of Windows, and bits of XNU
and other than the obvious wrongness of this… is that really the best we can do? just ditch linux as a place where we invent stuff and innovate and come up with a legitimately better thing than what came before? cause I can tell you through hard experience that trying to write original code against an LLM-generated API in a codebase turned to jelly by LLM-driven decisions and men mindlessly going LGTM is an exercise in futility and frustration
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@zzt Serious question: how hard is it to fork the kernel before it's too slopified to save?
@galacticstone it’s the linux kernel, forking it would be a gargantuan task and require the coordinated support of a bunch of downstreams and a bunch of hardware vendors who currently profit off of Linux adopting LLMs because they sell the hardware that powers LLMs
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@moses_izumi @zzt okay, i'm gonna install haiku on my firstgen eeepeecee then. it mostly sits doing nothing.
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@zzt he's living long enough for the kernel to change from monument to your hubris (laudatory) to monument to your hubris (derogatory)
IMHO the right point to fork it is somewhere 6.18-ish.
6.12 to 6.14 saw some really great improvements to the scheduler that did benefit latency sensitive, compute heavy applications (realtime simulation, visualization, games). Also new locking mechanism introduced that vastly simplifies WINE and also can be beneficial for native applications.
But the 7.x series onward is tainted.
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@zzt This is bad, but it's being misrepresented. The headline alone makes it read like there's a bunch of codeslop being accepted, while the actual story is that maintainers are trusting reviewslop to merge things more quickly than they would if they were actually reviewing them.
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“nothing that can be done about this” says guy who caused this and derogatorily called anyone who doesn’t like it an SJW
@zzt man i'm just tired.
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nobody requested this, nobody wants gigantic kernel updates with very low quality code in them. the kernel of all things needs a slower pace and more care, because it’s the fucking kernel.
so who do you imagine is holding torvalds’ feet to the fire on this? maybe it’s the LLM companies pouring fucktons of money into the Linux foundation? nah can’t be. must be all the downstream projects that are going to get fucked over by this, they surely want the worst possible version of Linux
@zzt reading this sure brings to mind many similar complaints I have about the rise of systemd
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@galacticstone it’s the linux kernel, forking it would be a gargantuan task and require the coordinated support of a bunch of downstreams and a bunch of hardware vendors who currently profit off of Linux adopting LLMs because they sell the hardware that powers LLMs
@zzt So, if I am reading you correctly, it's possible but would be a major effort requiring a team and resources. A couple of hardcore coders couldn't do this on their own.
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@zzt So, if I am reading you correctly, it's possible but would be a major effort requiring a team and resources. A couple of hardcore coders couldn't do this on their own.
@zzt Further thoughts : revert the kernel back to a date before slop was merged. Then rebuild everything after that. Ouch. How far back does the slop already go?
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and again I’ll point out how fucking quick this shit is happening
torvalds posts a defense of AI slop in the kernel with a right-wing conspiracy theory as the reason
a bunch of other open source projects just go “well the kernel says it’s ok so we’re doing slop now”
barely a couple of weeks later the kernel is changing its release cadence and quality standards entirely and the man in charge is shrugging and literally going “what can you do”
you can cut the crap, asshole. it’s your literal job to cut the crap.
@zzt Okay, back to Windows, then
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and you know what? almost all of the projects claiming LLMs benefited them are cookie cutter web and app crap in typescript or some other high level language
the only instances I’ve seen of kernel code in C being produced by an LLM have all been broken, plagarized slop. like shit, look at the utter failure of a C compiler that’s… abandoned now. look at the utter failure of a web browser that’s… also abandoned. the slop “reimplementation” of Macintosh System 7 that doesn’t work. the Meshtastic OS from the guy who tried to steal the Meshtastic copyright that… also doesn’t work
so uh where does this assertion that these things are any good at C come from? every time this has been tried it failed badly.
@zzt Bjarne Stroustrup went on record as saying he thought LLMs would not be of much help for C++. https://youtu.be/U46fJ2bJ-co?t=5331
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you know, assuming software engineering wasn’t just a lie we told ourselves:
in software engineering, unintentionally changing release cadence and having a ton more shit than you planned in each release is a sign that something is direly wrong with how your project is being run
@zzt big assumption
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and you know what? almost all of the projects claiming LLMs benefited them are cookie cutter web and app crap in typescript or some other high level language
the only instances I’ve seen of kernel code in C being produced by an LLM have all been broken, plagarized slop. like shit, look at the utter failure of a C compiler that’s… abandoned now. look at the utter failure of a web browser that’s… also abandoned. the slop “reimplementation” of Macintosh System 7 that doesn’t work. the Meshtastic OS from the guy who tried to steal the Meshtastic copyright that… also doesn’t work
so uh where does this assertion that these things are any good at C come from? every time this has been tried it failed badly.
@zzt don't forget the Gas Town guy's pet project, a million LOC Java codebase for a 30 year old gMUD which was apparently impossible to develop in, to which he added over a dozen "AI agents," which proceeded to introduce tons of regressions to things which had worked fine for decades and straight up hallucinate patch notes
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“nothing that can be done about this” says guy who caused this and derogatorily called anyone who doesn’t like it an SJW
@zzt
See. Younger Linus would have been much, much more vulgar, but would have cut that crap out.This goes completely against 40 years of kernel development standards.
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@zzt don't forget the Gas Town guy's pet project, a million LOC Java codebase for a 30 year old gMUD which was apparently impossible to develop in, to which he added over a dozen "AI agents," which proceeded to introduce tons of regressions to things which had worked fine for decades and straight up hallucinate patch notes
@tael @zzt at this point, as someone with ADHD who has experienced the "slot machine effect" of LLMs (not code) and realized, with horror, what exactly that neuro feedback was doing in my brain...how many of these folks going in on it in this coding way are undiagnosed, and thus unaware of the impacts, or maybe are diagnosed and lack the mindfulness practices to start becoming aware of the way their brains handle these sorts of stimuli.
Like, I only learned about that kind of practice since 2019 and I've found it invaluable in recognizing when something is causing horrible problems for me. I don't always like to see it, but man Linus etc need to actually have the A awareness Of Self to understand the way their brain handles the feedback from the slot machine.
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and again I’ll point out how fucking quick this shit is happening
torvalds posts a defense of AI slop in the kernel with a right-wing conspiracy theory as the reason
a bunch of other open source projects just go “well the kernel says it’s ok so we’re doing slop now”
barely a couple of weeks later the kernel is changing its release cadence and quality standards entirely and the man in charge is shrugging and literally going “what can you do”
you can cut the crap, asshole. it’s your literal job to cut the crap.
@zzt is that why my fedora44 webserver took a dump after a update and now won't even boot to finish?
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oh wow, the machine can plagiarize servo into a web browser that’s broken and strictly worse than servo!
oh wow, the machine can plagiarize GCC and a bunch of undergrad compiler projects into… a C compiler so unoptimized and broken it probably set a record for how slow its output ran, which also didn’t run any of the normal sanity checks on its input
so what exactly are the LLMs running on the Linux kernel going to plagiarize from?
we know the answer of course, there’s not a lot of kernels they can pull from
oh hey, some of you have seen this before but look at torvalds’ prior work before shoving LLMs forcefully into the workflow of the kernel:
https://infosec.exchange/@atax1a/115867354992858960
it’s a fucking Python data visualizer tool that you or I could have written in a day, but torvalds decided Python wasn’t a worthy language for him to learn so he used an LLM instead
and this wasn’t his first time fucking with the things, but this was his last project before he decided to go all-in
somehow an LLM doing a shit Python data visualization tool for one of his hobbies convinced him that LLMs must be really good at the type of low-level C the kernel is written in
that’s all the evidence this mid little fucker needed to assert it as fact
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oh hey, some of you have seen this before but look at torvalds’ prior work before shoving LLMs forcefully into the workflow of the kernel:
https://infosec.exchange/@atax1a/115867354992858960
it’s a fucking Python data visualizer tool that you or I could have written in a day, but torvalds decided Python wasn’t a worthy language for him to learn so he used an LLM instead
and this wasn’t his first time fucking with the things, but this was his last project before he decided to go all-in
somehow an LLM doing a shit Python data visualization tool for one of his hobbies convinced him that LLMs must be really good at the type of low-level C the kernel is written in
that’s all the evidence this mid little fucker needed to assert it as fact
when you’re a world class smart boy C expert but you fail to learn basic frontend Python so hard you get addicted to LLMs instead
