thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
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@ZenHeathen @SnoopJ This is really reminiscent of Bernard Williams. He had a lot to say about morality, almost all of it negative, but he particularly detested the inescapability and ubiquity of the obligation it imposes on everybody. Morality says that if you're at that lever you are *obligated* to choose who to save. It's on you. Williams called bullshit.
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thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
@SnoopJ that fact we all try to find a technical loophole to the problem is the problem - we don’t want to face the decision. But that is the point of the trolly problem in the first place.
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What I particularly love about this is that it completely works as a metaphor as well:
The true solution when you face a "trolley problem" in real life is to study more detail to find additional options. Because no real world situation is ever this binary.
@TerryHancock @SnoopJ the first part I saw of this toot, and the whole discussion, was the last sentence. I immediately associated it with the argument "nothing in nature is binary" in gender discourse. After the rest of the toot made its way to my brain, I concluded: "trolley problem" would be such a fabulous gender for a person to have. I will have to consider adding it next to the one I just announced.
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thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
@SnoopJ Oscar Puente would like a word.
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thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
@SnoopJ@hachyderm.io okay, but the momentum of the trolly is going to make it rotate and fly off the tracks so it still might kill some people
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thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
@SnoopJ People have literally died this way, when a faulty switch ahead of the platform caused a wagon to sweep it.
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@SnoopJ The Metaphor Problem: You need to be able to describe abstract concepts to uneducated persons, so you use a metaphor to explain it. But then some of those people take the metaphor literally and try to figure out how to resolve it as if it were a literal situation. It's not yet been determined if this is avoidable, since doing so would require a metaphor that applies down to the most minute details possible.
@disorderlyf @SnoopJ
The problem is that the metaphor adds extra details that complicate the basic moral question. Either those details are important, in which case you can't fault people for considering them, or they are unimportant, in which case the metaphor is flawed for including them. -
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@SnoopJ ... killing everyone aboard
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@TerryHancock @SnoopJ I think that's why the hypothetical thought experiment has such urgency built into it. Decide now! Flip the switch or not. Push the fat man or not. Tick tock. Tick tock.
A similar tactic to that used by phishers. And the response is the same: "Nothing is that urgent. Stop. Breathe. Think."
@GrahamDowns @TerryHancock @SnoopJ
Of course sometimes people really do have to make snap decisions. One of the ways we can improve our quick decision making is to consider possible cases in detail in advance so we're ready when they come up. That said, we should be more generous judging people forced to make quick decisions. -
thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
@SnoopJ I’ve always thought that the trolley problem is a perfect example of a false dichotomy
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@SnoopJ
Reverse the problem. What do you do if it's Trump strapped to one line and Putin to the other (other malign leaders are available)?None of the proposed solutions would achieve an optimum outcome!
@gregalotl It all depends on the speed of the trolley, which is also a weak point in the solution of @SnoopJ With enough speed the trolley might overturn and keep doing so, killing 'em all.
But love the solution for the there-is-always-another-way approach - really great. -
@GrahamDowns @TerryHancock @SnoopJ
Of course sometimes people really do have to make snap decisions. One of the ways we can improve our quick decision making is to consider possible cases in detail in advance so we're ready when they come up. That said, we should be more generous judging people forced to make quick decisions.@TerryHancock @SnoopJ @VATVSLPR that's true.
I had a minister once who used to say, "There as nothing so prepared as an off the cuff response."
Obviously he was talking about something else, but I guess that translates here: "There is nothing so prepared as a snap decision."
It makes sense to at least give some thought to what you might do if you were ever so unlucky as to find yourself in a position like this, so that if it were to happen, you at least have some idea on which to base your decision. Even if you can never FULLY prepare yourself for something like this.
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@TerryHancock @SnoopJ @VATVSLPR that's true.
I had a minister once who used to say, "There as nothing so prepared as an off the cuff response."
Obviously he was talking about something else, but I guess that translates here: "There is nothing so prepared as a snap decision."
It makes sense to at least give some thought to what you might do if you were ever so unlucky as to find yourself in a position like this, so that if it were to happen, you at least have some idea on which to base your decision. Even if you can never FULLY prepare yourself for something like this.
@GrahamDowns @TerryHancock @SnoopJ
It's more about being able to make decisions effortlessly than quickly. The idea is to know what to do in a plausible but unfamiliar situation so we don't get overwhelmed by the moment. It's used for all kinds of training, not just ethical questions. It's why people like firefighters and soldiers train so much; they want to be able to respond correctly even when they're under enormous stress. -
thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
@SnoopJ if this diagram is accurate , I bet you could flip the switch and run to that one guy in time, as well.
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thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
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@scottmichaud they might get a bruise, but I'll take it!
Relatedly, in looking this image up again, I saw someone frame the trolley problem as "you are ON a trolley..." which is an impressive level of misunderstanding of both the problem and how switches work
@SnoopJ @scottmichaud that's how they did it on The Good Place lol, they were inside the trolley and the switch was too 🥴
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thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
@SnoopJ this happened as part of the sequence of events in one of Germany's deadliest train disasters
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@GrahamDowns @TerryHancock @SnoopJ
It's more about being able to make decisions effortlessly than quickly. The idea is to know what to do in a plausible but unfamiliar situation so we don't get overwhelmed by the moment. It's used for all kinds of training, not just ethical questions. It's why people like firefighters and soldiers train so much; they want to be able to respond correctly even when they're under enormous stress.@TerryHancock @SnoopJ @VATVSLPR yeah, I also thought about something like learning to use a firearm and preparing yourself for the possibility of having to point it at another human being and pull the trigger. All sorts of things like that. Preparing yourself for situations that you hope will never come up, and if you're lucky will never come up, but if they DO come up, you need to be able to react... Effortlessly, as you say.
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thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
