Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@firefoxwebdevs @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt a self-selecting survey with push-poll questions that deliberately leave out the "no LLMs in Firefox" option is unlikely to be statistically valid
(also we know this is just noise and Mozilla will do whatever was planned in the meeting anyway)
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@firefoxwebdevs @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt a self-selecting survey with push-poll questions that deliberately leave out the "no LLMs in Firefox" option is unlikely to be statistically valid
(also we know this is just noise and Mozilla will do whatever was planned in the meeting anyway)
@davidgerard @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt I realise your position is immutable, but I've already used the results of this survey to push for a change to the design of the kill switch. I'm grateful to everyone who responded.
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@firefoxwebdevs there's a huge difference between calling out to an external llm service and using the translation-specific on-device models.
(If, hypothetically, llm's like chatgpt were not a thing, would people have such visceral reactions against the translatelocally models?)
@unhammer a lot of folks in the replies & responders to the poll feel differently. I personally agree with you, but I want the kill switch to have broader appeal.
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@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs where did I say I'm uncomfortable with the name "kill switch"?
@jaffathecake @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs in the quoted post included as the reference
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@firefoxwebdevs I think it's less about use cases and more about general trust, as privacy often boils down to. If you're talking about an AI "kill switch", you're talking about trust in what's been defined as "AI", and trust in the browser developer as a whole.
Once definitions are murky, there's an area open for ongoing redefinition. One way to adopt a "private by default" approach is to follow what cookies do, for instance, and allow users to allow limits to the extents of permissions.
@scribe I'm not sure cookies are a great source of inspiration when it comes to privacy
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@jaffathecake @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs in the quoted post included as the reference
@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs but I didn't say that. Get your words out of my mouth.
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@firefoxwebdevs @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt I was talking about the surveys pushed within Firefox: https://www.askvg.com/tip-disable-surveys-rate-your-experience-out-of-date-notifications-in-firefox/
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@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs but I didn't say that. Get your words out of my mouth.
@jaffathecake @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs
> I'm sure it'll ship with a less murderous name
those don't appear to be words of comfort
what is this "how dare you take 2+2 and get 4 I am outraged at your calumnies" shit
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@davidgerard @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt I realise your position is immutable, but I've already used the results of this survey to push for a change to the design of the kill switch. I'm grateful to everyone who responded.
@firefoxwebdevs @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet is the change to the design of the kill switch that it doesn’t exist because all of Firefox’s AI features will be moved into add-ons that aren’t installed by default?
if not, you’ve used the results of the poll to misrepresent community opinion and @davidgerard’s quote unquote “immutable position”, whatever that means to people who don’t speak passive aggressive post-it note, is absolutely correct
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@davidgerard @RAOF If your core belief is that Mozilla is failing to serve at the benefit of its members, then what are you even doing on this thread? You just hoping to harass the Dev account until they block you out of spite?
What evidence could any of us provide that would change your mind and cause you to become a Mozilla booster instead?
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@jaffathecake @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs
> I'm sure it'll ship with a less murderous name
those don't appear to be words of comfort
what is this "how dare you take 2+2 and get 4 I am outraged at your calumnies" shit
@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs I'm sure it'll ship with a less murderous name because folks internally have said that. I expressed no discomfort with the name personally. I used it again in the poll post. I clearly have no personal issue with using it.
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@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs I'm sure it'll ship with a less murderous name because folks internally have said that. I expressed no discomfort with the name personally. I used it again in the poll post. I clearly have no personal issue with using it.
@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs in fact, someone internally questioned me using "kill switch" in the post above, and I defended it, saying that a lot of folks I chatted to liked and understood the name.
Whilst it might not make it into Release Firefox, I think it's the right term to use in these discussions in the meantime.
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@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs in fact, someone internally questioned me using "kill switch" in the post above, and I defended it, saying that a lot of folks I chatted to liked and understood the name.
Whilst it might not make it into Release Firefox, I think it's the right term to use in these discussions in the meantime.
@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs I did not say I was personally uncomfortable with the term, because I am not personally uncomfortable with the term.
Please do not let your imagination run wild with this.
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@firefoxwebdevs @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet is the change to the design of the kill switch that it doesn’t exist because all of Firefox’s AI features will be moved into add-ons that aren’t installed by default?
if not, you’ve used the results of the poll to misrepresent community opinion and @davidgerard’s quote unquote “immutable position”, whatever that means to people who don’t speak passive aggressive post-it note, is absolutely correct
@zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard My interpretation of the poll results is that the vast majority of people feel that the translation engine should be disabled as part of an AI kill switch, but there should be a way to re-enable the translation engine whilst leaving the kill switch otherwise active.
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@scribe I'm not sure cookies are a great source of inspiration when it comes to privacy
@firefoxwebdevs In the context of granular control they're quite good though? ie I can accept/delete them per domain as I like. I voted for the middle option as the only granular option, but granularity can be more fine-grained than that, is what I mean. And privacy is all about control over the granularity. Time-limited access tokens with very specific permissions are maybe a better analogy.
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@zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard My interpretation of the poll results is that the vast majority of people feel that the translation engine should be disabled as part of an AI kill switch, but there should be a way to re-enable the translation engine whilst leaving the kill switch otherwise active.
@firefoxwebdevs @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard you do realise that social media polls should not be used as an input for any serious actions because they're inherently flawed, yes?
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@zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard My interpretation of the poll results is that the vast majority of people feel that the translation engine should be disabled as part of an AI kill switch, but there should be a way to re-enable the translation engine whilst leaving the kill switch otherwise active.
@firefoxwebdevs @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet you've had multiple people call out the missing options in the poll, please don't pretend this wasn't a slanted promotional survey
if you claim this statistically bogus poll represents the will of the users, you are lying and you know you're lying
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@firefoxwebdevs @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard you do realise that social media polls should not be used as an input for any serious actions because they're inherently flawed, yes?
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@davidgerard @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt I realise your position is immutable, but I've already used the results of this survey to push for a change to the design of the kill switch. I'm grateful to everyone who responded.
@firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt
I didn’t see the poll before this post, but my number one request to Mozilla remains the same:
Stop using the term ‘AI’ anywhere.
It is a meaningless marketing term pushed by the worst parts of the tech industry. Don’t use a catch all for a bunch of unrelated things, name them individually and explain to users why they should care (if you can’t, don’t ship them at all). And make all of them off by default.
Feel free to pop up a dialog saying ‘This page is in a language that you haven’t said you speak, Firefox has optional on-device translation models trained ethically (see here for more information)k would you like to install them? (If you decide not to, you can change this decision later in settings) [ Never install translation models ] [ Never install translation models for this language ] [ Install translation model for this language ] [ Automatically install translation models for any language ]’.
Similarly, if a user hovers over an image with no alt text, feel free to pop up a dialog saying ‘This image has no text description. Firefox has an on-device image-recognition model that is ethically trained (see here for more information) that can attempt to provide one automatically. Would you like to install it? If you do not, you can later install it from settings. [ Do not install image-recognition model ] [ Install image-recognition model ]’.
And, in both of these cases, pop up that dialog at most once.
See how neither of these needed to say ‘AI’? Because they were explaining what the model did and why. This is how you communicate with users if you care about users more than you care about investors and hype trains.
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@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs I did not say I was personally uncomfortable with the term, because I am not personally uncomfortable with the term.
Please do not let your imagination run wild with this.
@jaffathecake @davidgerard @mdavis@mastodon.social @firefoxwebdevs this is a real weird hill for you to die on
if you’re representing your employer and they’re uncomfortable with the kill switch naming, to the point where you keep encasing the term in scare quotes every time it’s used, then we can’t tell and frankly don’t care if you personally love the term. nobody’s here for Jake. do you understand that? we’re here because we’re dedicated Firefox users angry at the direction your employer has taken.
