So, here's my defense plan for Canada.
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One more, more thing: China.
One temptation would be to get military support and other aid from China. It's a huge economy, would benefit from our economic resources, and has massive military resources.
I think this might backfire badly. It would go from a war of choice for the Americans to a war of survival. They would probably fight more desperately than if it was just Canadians and their European allies.
Meh, there are a whole lot of other things.
- Tactical bombers are a big problem; they have a range of 1500-2200km and you just can't get out of their range and stay out of the Arctic Circle.
- The Great Lakes present a lot of opportunities for fuckery. It's about 8000 km of US shoreline.
- There is probably also a lot of opportunity for counterattack on the coasts.
- What happens to the 60K US service members in the 100-200 US bases in Europe? Good question! -
We have thousands of kilometers of borderland between the continental US and Canada, as well as Alaska and Canada. Even if the US makes headway into Canada, we can identify areas of the US to occupy. The psychological effect of having US territory occupied by a foreign country would be really devastating on its citizens.
@evan Oh, absolutely. Americans do not know how it feels to be occupied; haven't had it happen since 1812.
I can't guarantee we wouldn't bite back like a rabid dog, but I can guarantee it would fuck with our identity fiercely to have a foreign sovereignty holding our soil.
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@evan Oh, absolutely. Americans do not know how it feels to be occupied; haven't had it happen since 1812.
I can't guarantee we wouldn't bite back like a rabid dog, but I can guarantee it would fuck with our identity fiercely to have a foreign sovereignty holding our soil.
@mark The more time and resources that were spent dicking around trying to recover the Alaska Panhandle or northern Maine would be time and resources not spent on Canadian territory.
I think the best move would be to hold a lot of rural area or wilderness, not any cities or even big towns (expensive and hard to hold). Make a big red stain on the map on the nightly news, with minimal effort.
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So, here's my defense plan for Canada. Basic philosophy: it is unsafe to wait for an attack.
1. Secure public confirmation from NATO that Article 5 applies even if the aggressor is also a NATO member.
2. Send an ultimatum to Washington demanding a public acknowledgement of Canadian sovereignty by the President and confirmation of non-aggression.
3. In the absence of that acknowledgement, sever diplomatic ties, close the borders, and embargo trade. Blow bridges, tear up roads and rail lines. -
This is the funniest thing I have ever read since I left the army, and my last three years were spent around training staff officers.
Go give your kids a hug, get some ice cream, maybe learn how to grow some potatoes.
@thecueball thank you for the hobby advice! I will see what I can do. I have a big garden, but I mostly grow native plants. I just got some of these, though, which I'm looking to plant this spring:
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@thecueball thank you for the hobby advice! I will see what I can do. I have a big garden, but I mostly grow native plants. I just got some of these, though, which I'm looking to plant this spring:
@thecueball I am definitely a complete amateur with defense plans!
The only thing I know is that the US military is about 30 times bigger than ours, and the US economy is about 13 times bigger than ours. If we want to survive an invasion, we'll need to use whatever advantages we can get -- territory, initiative, allies.
If you were a nation-state supporter, what would you do to try to maintain Canadian sovereignty in the face of an American aggressor? Rough sketch.
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And America's national sport is entitled rage.
Look, I'm on your side here. You're making the same mistake about Americans that the Japanese made at Pearl Harbor and al-Qaeda made on 9/11.
I'm not saying don't seize territory, I'm saying don't do it with the assumption it will worsen morale. It won't. It will harden resolve, not weaken it.
@siderea @skyfaller Absolutely possible and a fair point!
I suggested occupying low-population areas to put a lot of red on the map and attract military effort to those spots, so the war happens on US soil instead of Canadian soil.
That is probably not a great strategy from the American side, but I think popular opinion would insist on it.
It also gives something to negotiate over: you return southern Ontario, we return the Alaska panhandle or whatever.
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So, here's my defense plan for Canada. Basic philosophy: it is unsafe to wait for an attack.
1. Secure public confirmation from NATO that Article 5 applies even if the aggressor is also a NATO member.
2. Send an ultimatum to Washington demanding a public acknowledgement of Canadian sovereignty by the President and confirmation of non-aggression.
3. In the absence of that acknowledgement, sever diplomatic ties, close the borders, and embargo trade. Blow bridges, tear up roads and rail lines.The point of these steps is that we don't benefit from delay. If it's going to happen, we need to start getting ready immediately, and not spin our wheels hoping for some change in policy.
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@siderea @skyfaller Absolutely possible and a fair point!
I suggested occupying low-population areas to put a lot of red on the map and attract military effort to those spots, so the war happens on US soil instead of Canadian soil.
That is probably not a great strategy from the American side, but I think popular opinion would insist on it.
It also gives something to negotiate over: you return southern Ontario, we return the Alaska panhandle or whatever.
@evan oh, definitely try to have the fighting on US soil. As to low population areas, Canada is going to need to strike at relevant US military bases, wherever they are.
You are speaking in anger and fear, which is understandable, but time has come, alas, for cold-eyed military pragmatism.
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@evan oh, definitely try to have the fighting on US soil. As to low population areas, Canada is going to need to strike at relevant US military bases, wherever they are.
You are speaking in anger and fear, which is understandable, but time has come, alas, for cold-eyed military pragmatism.
@siderea @skyfaller oh, I'm not angry! This is just a thought experiment, not a serious plan.
Like I said, I'm just a software developer, not a military planner. I was just wondering, if a war is coming, what would be the best ways to survive as a sovereign nation?
I think, as the much smaller nation, we'd need to use other advantages: territory, initiative, allies. Being passive probably wouldn't work, I think.
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@Tabby_Schaf I honestly don't know. Where do Russian dissidents go? I am pretty sure they don't try to cross the front lines into Ukraine.
@evan they have some more borders. But once they crossed they continue to flee by plane. If I were American, I would cross the border to Canads and the take a plane to Australia, New Zealand, evtl. Portugal, GB
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@siderea @skyfaller oh, I'm not angry! This is just a thought experiment, not a serious plan.
Like I said, I'm just a software developer, not a military planner. I was just wondering, if a war is coming, what would be the best ways to survive as a sovereign nation?
I think, as the much smaller nation, we'd need to use other advantages: territory, initiative, allies. Being passive probably wouldn't work, I think.
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@siderea @skyfaller Yeah, but that opens up a whole different can of worms. I think it's a lot harder for the US to break off a proxy war with China than it is to break off a war with its own NATO allies (ex-allies?). And popular support of a war against a Chinese proxy right on the US border would probably be much higher than for a costly war of conquest.
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4. Evacuate Canadian civilians from the border area; probably 300km or more. Yes, this is where most Canadians live.
5. Declare a security corridor of 300km on the other side of the border, in US territory. Any military activity in that area is a sign of imminent aggression and will prompt a defensive strike.
6. If anything occurs, surge forward and take territory. Keep any war on US soil, not in Canada.I guess this is called a "diversionary counterattack".
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@Tabby_Schaf I honestly don't know. Where do Russian dissidents go? I am pretty sure they don't try to cross the front lines into Ukraine.
@evan actually it's too late for them to flee. Initially they fled to Kazachstan, Georgia, Finland, Litauen, evtl. They could fly to Serbia or Turkey.
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@evan they have some more borders. But once they crossed they continue to flee by plane. If I were American, I would cross the border to Canads and the take a plane to Australia, New Zealand, evtl. Portugal, GB
@Tabby_Schaf well, I guess if there were a war going on on the Canadian border, you'd have to go to Mexico instead, and then fly from there.
It feels extreme to ask Canadians not to defend themselves from an invasion, so there's a convenient exit path for American emigrants? Am I misunderstanding the question?
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@evan actually it's too late for them to flee. Initially they fled to Kazachstan, Georgia, Finland, Litauen, evtl. They could fly to Serbia or Turkey.
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@evan @Tabby_Schaf As someone who would love to move to Canada (but can't right now due to family), I'm with you on this. If the US did invade Canada, it would be absolutely foolish for Americans to try to escape there - only to potentially be recaptured. A better plan is to stay put and sabotage/fight the fascists, or escape to a different country.
@Andres4NY @evan after invasion you have to close the border of course, this would be the frontline. But just now?
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@Tabby_Schaf well, I guess if there were a war going on on the Canadian border, you'd have to go to Mexico instead, and then fly from there.
It feels extreme to ask Canadians not to defend themselves from an invasion, so there's a convenient exit path for American emigrants? Am I misunderstanding the question?
@evan yes you misunderstood and eventually me too misunderstood: I thought you spoke of closing the border right now. In the moment of invasion you have to do.
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@Andres4NY @evan after invasion you have to close the border of course, this would be the frontline. But just now?
@Tabby_Schaf @Andres4NY Right. In this case, the US government gives confirmation that it intends to invade. That's when the border would be closed. So Canada could prepare to stop the invasion.
