Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@fasterandworse @firefoxwebdevs @mdavis it is less likely to be a stumble and more likely introduced in bad faith by a PM to derail the process
Btw, there's meaningful discussion to be had about the biases encoded in ML-based translation -- try translating "the scientist" and "the teacher" into a language with gendered nouns. But that is separate from the widespread opposition to LLMs and everyone knows it.
@fasterandworse @firefoxwebdevs @mdavis (that being said I voted for "yes but let me turn it back on". That's what we want: a modular browser with granular settings. "Ha ha you can have translation but only if you want the rest of the AI" would be a dark pattern.)
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs irrelevant. Firefox was dead the moment you jumped the fraudulent llm train. Only idiots will use Firefox in the future. Go to hell, assholes!
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social translation should be in an entirely separate extension, and not included in the base browser. same for the LLM garbage. get it out of my browser.
if you want, you can prompt me to install it. once. -
Why is Firefox even running this survey?
Because the people in charge genuinely believe that AI slop is The Future
and believe that, in order to stay relevant, Firefox must become an AI Browser.But somehow users inexplicably dislike AI slop?! How can this be?!
Embedding AI slop in Firefox as deeply and pervasively as possible is thus a critical goal. But this risks reputational damage with its actual users! To mitigate the risk, bundle features that were not controversial into the discussion of the controversial features; this serves to average the controversy across the (previously uncontroversial, existing) translation feature and highly controversial new slop features, hopefully reducing it below an ignorable threshold.
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@firefoxwebdevs But wait… what if the developers used AI to help develop the code in the browser itself? Does that mean AI kill switch purists should then rather not even use the product at all?
@mdavis@mastodon.social @firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social this is correct. i would rather not use the product at all. i am actively rejecting the use of software that has a policy of accepting code generated by LLMs in favor of software that has a policy of rejecting that code.
i would much prefer Firefox not only to not have AI features, but not to include AI-generated code either. -
The Firefox AI "kill switch" is not "complicated" except insofar as it's incoherent. it's not "undisclosed nuance" except insofar as it's incoherent.
the "kill switch" doesn't exist.
this is important to keep in mind. once you remember that NONE OF THIS EXISTS, you will realise that every one of the dilemmas you posit is an imaginary problem that follows from incoherent postulates.
e.g. "AI kill switch purists" is not a coherent postulation because the "kill switch" does not exist.
the "kill switch" is a hypothetical proposed in this post:
https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115740500373677782
the "kill switch" is a proposal to satisfy the demand for an opt-in by providing an opt-out. you might think that's a failure to respect the question, and you might even begin to suspect the proposal was in bad faith.
note that Jake, in presenting the kill switch and calling it a kill switch and getting it into all the papers as a kill switch, says he's uncomfortable with the name he's publicised it as. you might think that's oddly incompetent for literally a PR (devrel) person.
the concept as presented imposes multiple false dilemmas.
the LLM stuff should *incredibly obviously* be an extension. this is the purest possible opt-in, despite jake's past attempts to muddy the meaning of "opt-in".
making it an extension is also eminently feasible. There is literally no technical reason it needs to be a browser built-in.
this suggests the reasons are not in any way technical. some person with a name, who has yet to be named, dictated that it would be a built-in. so that's what Mozilla is going with.
why Mozilla went hard AI is entirely unclear. this would have been late 2024? we have no idea who was inspired with this bad idea nor why they were so incredibly keen to force it into the browser.
nor is it clear what Mozilla will do for external LLM services when the AI bubble runs out of venture capital and pops in a year or so, most of the chatbot APIs shut down and whatever remains is 10x the cost at least. but that's a problem for 2027's bonus, not 2026's.
note how the poll provides no option for "no LLM functions built-in to Firefox", in a pathetically transparent attempt to synthesize consent. jake wants to use this poll as evidence of what the user base wants, deliberately leaving out the option he knows directly a lot of them want.
and in conclusion:
1. solve the "kill switch" naming problem by branding it the "brutal and bloody robot murder switch with an option on the executives responsible".
2. make all this shit an extension like they should have a year ago.
3. and your little translator too.@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs
In my admittedly limited experience with exceptionally dubious features that the users don't want, but the executives do, it's also not truly an 'AI kill switch' until it also fires the people responsible for putting 'AI' into the thing in the first place.
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@dante seems like a valid question to me. I mean it's literally a different tool than prompted genAI, and the definition of "AI" keeps shifting.
@joshg this is pedantic. this is attempting to get around the broader concern which is that people are fucking tired of getting LLM bullshit shoved in their faces in every app. Just gut it. Gut all of it. No one cares about this definitional shit. Firefox has addons for a reason
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs whatever, you guys clearly aren't interested in feedback, or actually making the browser good. Don't bother adding a "kill switch", I'm just gonna stick to librewolf or switch to something chromium based. -
@davidgerard @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs
In my admittedly limited experience with exceptionally dubious features that the users don't want, but the executives do, it's also not truly an 'AI kill switch' until it also fires the people responsible for putting 'AI' into the thing in the first place.
@theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs that's the other missing poll option, yes
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@theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs that's the other missing poll option, yes
@davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs "No AI, and Anthony Enzor-DeMeo resigns in disgrace."
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@firefoxwebdevs whatever, you guys clearly aren't interested in feedback, or actually making the browser good. Don't bother adding a "kill switch", I'm just gonna stick to librewolf or switch to something chromium based.@firefoxwebdevs when thinking of mozilla I feel nothing but resentment and disdain. I do not care what mozilla does anymore
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Make them all an extension one can download and use with single click. Problem solved.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Welcome to Waterfox.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Missing the option "Remove all so-called 'AI' elements from Firefox and let those who want them install them as extensions"
But at this point I've already voted that way by uninstalling Firefox from all devices.
Cosigning everything written here: https://www.waterfox.com/blog/no-ai-here-response-to-mozilla/
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@davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs "No AI, and Anthony Enzor-DeMeo resigns in disgrace."
@theorangetheme @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs also the new AI CMO. also whichever person started this ball rolling and got Anthony in.
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@theorangetheme @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs also the new AI CMO. also whichever person started this ball rolling and got Anthony in.
@davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs I fixed it.
Do you want AI slop in Firefox?
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
Make it entirely opt-in, not built-in an default-enabled.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs That's a bloody stupid question, and a disingenuous one, as ML is merely a form of AI that's unsuited to translation.
It should be a Y/N choice on "Do you want climate-destroying AI in Firefox, despite it already being a resource-hungry app?"
Then you can apply Betteridge's law. Occam already voted.
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The Firefox AI "kill switch" is not "complicated" except insofar as it's incoherent. it's not "undisclosed nuance" except insofar as it's incoherent.
the "kill switch" doesn't exist.
this is important to keep in mind. once you remember that NONE OF THIS EXISTS, you will realise that every one of the dilemmas you posit is an imaginary problem that follows from incoherent postulates.
e.g. "AI kill switch purists" is not a coherent postulation because the "kill switch" does not exist.
the "kill switch" is a hypothetical proposed in this post:
https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115740500373677782
the "kill switch" is a proposal to satisfy the demand for an opt-in by providing an opt-out. you might think that's a failure to respect the question, and you might even begin to suspect the proposal was in bad faith.
note that Jake, in presenting the kill switch and calling it a kill switch and getting it into all the papers as a kill switch, says he's uncomfortable with the name he's publicised it as. you might think that's oddly incompetent for literally a PR (devrel) person.
the concept as presented imposes multiple false dilemmas.
the LLM stuff should *incredibly obviously* be an extension. this is the purest possible opt-in, despite jake's past attempts to muddy the meaning of "opt-in".
making it an extension is also eminently feasible. There is literally no technical reason it needs to be a browser built-in.
this suggests the reasons are not in any way technical. some person with a name, who has yet to be named, dictated that it would be a built-in. so that's what Mozilla is going with.
why Mozilla went hard AI is entirely unclear. this would have been late 2024? we have no idea who was inspired with this bad idea nor why they were so incredibly keen to force it into the browser.
nor is it clear what Mozilla will do for external LLM services when the AI bubble runs out of venture capital and pops in a year or so, most of the chatbot APIs shut down and whatever remains is 10x the cost at least. but that's a problem for 2027's bonus, not 2026's.
note how the poll provides no option for "no LLM functions built-in to Firefox", in a pathetically transparent attempt to synthesize consent. jake wants to use this poll as evidence of what the user base wants, deliberately leaving out the option he knows directly a lot of them want.
and in conclusion:
1. solve the "kill switch" naming problem by branding it the "brutal and bloody robot murder switch with an option on the executives responsible".
2. make all this shit an extension like they should have a year ago.
3. and your little translator too.@davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs I appreciate the time and effort you put into this thoughtful response, emphasizing points that are an important part of the discussion.
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@firefoxwebdevs @joepie91 i'm a "tech folk". Just give us a version of firefox with zero AI. Translation can either be an extension or not there. We ask of you to supply a base for broSing the web, the rest is what the community delivers.
We won't ask you to integrate ad blockers, but we have them.
We won't ask you to integrate quick procy switchers, but we have them.Stop the feature creep and go back to the roots, make a very good browser with extension support and let people make the rest.
@Fooker @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91 with extensions written in Scheme
