jesus christ, Linux has had a 100% LLM takeover.
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@jookia@social.tchncs.de @davidgerard I hold a lot of the same complaints about FOSS culture. It's why I try to pay active attention to alternative social contract models like MOSS or convivial software - with so many of us disgruntled about such similar things, I do think we're going to coalesce on one of these successor models someday.
What I don't engage with, internally, is blanket pessimism. That's just doing Nadella's work for him, and it can genuinely be more selfish than even traditional developer-centered FOSS. I try to be honest about the limitations I've encountered with NetBSD, or the growing pains I expect with #MercuryMicrokernel, because these options are - in many ways - like putting on my own oxygen mask first so I can help others.
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jesus christ, Linux has had a 100% LLM takeover.
this project is completely cooked.
even after the AI bubble pop, it's not clear how to recover from this level of bullshit from this level of bullshitter.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1099594/be20382b54a9b4cd/
> Linus Torvalds believes that blaming LLMs for the kernel community's problems is wrong, when the problem is LLM users who do not understand how to use them or how the kernel works. A properly trained LLM is a useful tool, but it takes a lot of time to reach that point.
> Torvalds and others repeatedly said low-quality contributions from new developers should receive low priority, and that the community should stop trying to make contribution easy. Many developers said, repeatedly, that trying to mentor those developers is almost always a waste of time; they do not listen.
> There is some concern about companies maintaining private kernels with LLM help, but there does not seem to be much to be done about it.
> Kernel developers should not be required to use LLMs to work in the community, but those who do need to have enough resources available to generate acceptable results.
The requirement to add Assisted-by tags to patches created with LLMs will be removed, but maintainers still want to know about how a patch was created.so how's it going already?
> The development community is struggling to keep up with the flood of security patches, and will continue to for some time. Some of the most urgent fixes may bypass maintainers and go straight to Torvalds. Maintainers were cautioned against telling their employers about vulnerabilities before public disclosure happens.
Really, I'm not out to suck ass as much as Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect.
@davidgerard The Slopocalypse is going to result in generational damage. Like, "we forgot how to make concrete for 500 years*" damage.
*yes I know that's not really a thing.
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jesus christ, Linux has had a 100% LLM takeover.
this project is completely cooked.
even after the AI bubble pop, it's not clear how to recover from this level of bullshit from this level of bullshitter.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1099594/be20382b54a9b4cd/
> Linus Torvalds believes that blaming LLMs for the kernel community's problems is wrong, when the problem is LLM users who do not understand how to use them or how the kernel works. A properly trained LLM is a useful tool, but it takes a lot of time to reach that point.
> Torvalds and others repeatedly said low-quality contributions from new developers should receive low priority, and that the community should stop trying to make contribution easy. Many developers said, repeatedly, that trying to mentor those developers is almost always a waste of time; they do not listen.
> There is some concern about companies maintaining private kernels with LLM help, but there does not seem to be much to be done about it.
> Kernel developers should not be required to use LLMs to work in the community, but those who do need to have enough resources available to generate acceptable results.
The requirement to add Assisted-by tags to patches created with LLMs will be removed, but maintainers still want to know about how a patch was created.so how's it going already?
> The development community is struggling to keep up with the flood of security patches, and will continue to for some time. Some of the most urgent fixes may bypass maintainers and go straight to Torvalds. Maintainers were cautioned against telling their employers about vulnerabilities before public disclosure happens.
Really, I'm not out to suck ass as much as Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect.
@davidgerard@circumstances.run
Linus Torvalds believes that blaming LLMs for the kernel community’s problems is wrong, when the problem is LLM users who do not understand how to use them or how the kernel works.
I once told someone “it’s not that I dislike leaf blowers, it’s that I don’t think they should be gas-powered, people are usually using them to export a problem to somebody else instead of solving it, and people are constantly using them for weird things like drying out puddles instead of moving leaves into nice collectible piles.”
My interlocutor responded: “Okay, so you dislike leaf blowers.” And she was right.
I think about that conversation a lot.
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jesus christ, Linux has had a 100% LLM takeover.
this project is completely cooked.
even after the AI bubble pop, it's not clear how to recover from this level of bullshit from this level of bullshitter.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1099594/be20382b54a9b4cd/
> Linus Torvalds believes that blaming LLMs for the kernel community's problems is wrong, when the problem is LLM users who do not understand how to use them or how the kernel works. A properly trained LLM is a useful tool, but it takes a lot of time to reach that point.
> Torvalds and others repeatedly said low-quality contributions from new developers should receive low priority, and that the community should stop trying to make contribution easy. Many developers said, repeatedly, that trying to mentor those developers is almost always a waste of time; they do not listen.
> There is some concern about companies maintaining private kernels with LLM help, but there does not seem to be much to be done about it.
> Kernel developers should not be required to use LLMs to work in the community, but those who do need to have enough resources available to generate acceptable results.
The requirement to add Assisted-by tags to patches created with LLMs will be removed, but maintainers still want to know about how a patch was created.so how's it going already?
> The development community is struggling to keep up with the flood of security patches, and will continue to for some time. Some of the most urgent fixes may bypass maintainers and go straight to Torvalds. Maintainers were cautioned against telling their employers about vulnerabilities before public disclosure happens.
Really, I'm not out to suck ass as much as Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect.
@davidgerard this feels like they finally get to the point where the old boys won't need to onboard new developers, which is a perfect strategy for the next 3-8 years, and afterwards the old devs will literally start dying.
and thus the field for a novel operating system opens.
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@jookia@social.tchncs.de @davidgerard That does sound really frustrating. Without being there at the time, I can't speak too strongly about it. I guess when I start trying to actively contribute, we'll see if it goes any better, especially now that they've had a new round of funding.
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@davidgerard this feels like they finally get to the point where the old boys won't need to onboard new developers, which is a perfect strategy for the next 3-8 years, and afterwards the old devs will literally start dying.
and thus the field for a novel operating system opens.
@mawhrin @davidgerard surprised to find you have given me hope
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jesus christ, Linux has had a 100% LLM takeover.
this project is completely cooked.
even after the AI bubble pop, it's not clear how to recover from this level of bullshit from this level of bullshitter.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1099594/be20382b54a9b4cd/
> Linus Torvalds believes that blaming LLMs for the kernel community's problems is wrong, when the problem is LLM users who do not understand how to use them or how the kernel works. A properly trained LLM is a useful tool, but it takes a lot of time to reach that point.
> Torvalds and others repeatedly said low-quality contributions from new developers should receive low priority, and that the community should stop trying to make contribution easy. Many developers said, repeatedly, that trying to mentor those developers is almost always a waste of time; they do not listen.
> There is some concern about companies maintaining private kernels with LLM help, but there does not seem to be much to be done about it.
> Kernel developers should not be required to use LLMs to work in the community, but those who do need to have enough resources available to generate acceptable results.
The requirement to add Assisted-by tags to patches created with LLMs will be removed, but maintainers still want to know about how a patch was created.so how's it going already?
> The development community is struggling to keep up with the flood of security patches, and will continue to for some time. Some of the most urgent fixes may bypass maintainers and go straight to Torvalds. Maintainers were cautioned against telling their employers about vulnerabilities before public disclosure happens.
Really, I'm not out to suck ass as much as Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect.
Kernel developers should not be required to use LLMs to work in the community...
He is a merciful god.
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@davidgerard this feels like they finally get to the point where the old boys won't need to onboard new developers, which is a perfect strategy for the next 3-8 years, and afterwards the old devs will literally start dying.
and thus the field for a novel operating system opens.
@mawhrin @davidgerard quite precisely!
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@jookia@social.tchncs.de @davidgerard@circumstances.run @MaddieM4@raphus.social we need an OS by and for oppressed minorities, one example would be elementaryOS, its founder is explicitly queer, AuDHD and inclusive
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@davidgerard@circumstances.run
Linus Torvalds believes that blaming LLMs for the kernel community’s problems is wrong, when the problem is LLM users who do not understand how to use them or how the kernel works.
I once told someone “it’s not that I dislike leaf blowers, it’s that I don’t think they should be gas-powered, people are usually using them to export a problem to somebody else instead of solving it, and people are constantly using them for weird things like drying out puddles instead of moving leaves into nice collectible piles.”
My interlocutor responded: “Okay, so you dislike leaf blowers.” And she was right.
I think about that conversation a lot.
@jmelesky @davidgerard I'm still trying to understand what's wrong with just using a good ol' rake for the leaf collecting part
Cheap, no moving parts no fuel, alright exercise
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@mawhrin @davidgerard surprised to find you have given me hope
@hipsterelectron @mawhrin @davidgerard we always knew it'd come to this.
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@davidgerard Well. So much for the Year of the Linux Desktop.
@kawa @davidgerard Year of the Linux Bin Bottom
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@jookia@social.tchncs.de @davidgerard Do you specifically mean an operating system project? Because AntiX Linux are doing their best despite a hostile upstream they can't control.
But you did say "project", which covers... well, everything I've published for other people to use in the last 5 months, at intentionally small project scales. I'm literally going to be working on #Moonshine today in ways that make it even more useful for people trying to interact with the Fediverse on low-spec devices, low bandwidth, or just trying to manage their own attention better.
Not trying to unduly self-promo. I just found out about Cavern, a WIP by @varx earlier today.
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@jookia@social.tchncs.de @davidgerard@circumstances.run @MaddieM4@raphus.social the amount of bad faith pessimism in that reply is astronomical but also scroll down literally five pixels
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jesus christ, Linux has had a 100% LLM takeover.
this project is completely cooked.
even after the AI bubble pop, it's not clear how to recover from this level of bullshit from this level of bullshitter.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1099594/be20382b54a9b4cd/
> Linus Torvalds believes that blaming LLMs for the kernel community's problems is wrong, when the problem is LLM users who do not understand how to use them or how the kernel works. A properly trained LLM is a useful tool, but it takes a lot of time to reach that point.
> Torvalds and others repeatedly said low-quality contributions from new developers should receive low priority, and that the community should stop trying to make contribution easy. Many developers said, repeatedly, that trying to mentor those developers is almost always a waste of time; they do not listen.
> There is some concern about companies maintaining private kernels with LLM help, but there does not seem to be much to be done about it.
> Kernel developers should not be required to use LLMs to work in the community, but those who do need to have enough resources available to generate acceptable results.
The requirement to add Assisted-by tags to patches created with LLMs will be removed, but maintainers still want to know about how a patch was created.so how's it going already?
> The development community is struggling to keep up with the flood of security patches, and will continue to for some time. Some of the most urgent fixes may bypass maintainers and go straight to Torvalds. Maintainers were cautioned against telling their employers about vulnerabilities before public disclosure happens.
Really, I'm not out to suck ass as much as Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect.
@davidgerard “the community should stop trying to make contribution easy.” Oh, were they trying? I couldn’t tell.
So then, as a matter of policy, it is difficult to contribute as an attempt at discouraging low-effort patches. And they also do not want to teach new people how to contribute. But spam bots don’t get discouraged, so they’re still around. So now they complain about the patch spam and blame new contributors but see no problem with the system. Fascinating.
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jesus christ, Linux has had a 100% LLM takeover.
this project is completely cooked.
even after the AI bubble pop, it's not clear how to recover from this level of bullshit from this level of bullshitter.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1099594/be20382b54a9b4cd/
> Linus Torvalds believes that blaming LLMs for the kernel community's problems is wrong, when the problem is LLM users who do not understand how to use them or how the kernel works. A properly trained LLM is a useful tool, but it takes a lot of time to reach that point.
> Torvalds and others repeatedly said low-quality contributions from new developers should receive low priority, and that the community should stop trying to make contribution easy. Many developers said, repeatedly, that trying to mentor those developers is almost always a waste of time; they do not listen.
> There is some concern about companies maintaining private kernels with LLM help, but there does not seem to be much to be done about it.
> Kernel developers should not be required to use LLMs to work in the community, but those who do need to have enough resources available to generate acceptable results.
The requirement to add Assisted-by tags to patches created with LLMs will be removed, but maintainers still want to know about how a patch was created.so how's it going already?
> The development community is struggling to keep up with the flood of security patches, and will continue to for some time. Some of the most urgent fixes may bypass maintainers and go straight to Torvalds. Maintainers were cautioned against telling their employers about vulnerabilities before public disclosure happens.
Really, I'm not out to suck ass as much as Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect.
@davidgerard
That entire discussion was one big long category error. A #LLM does not "write code" just like it does not "write a poem". It creates a MODEL of code, or a MODEL of a poem, which a human being then decides to USE as code or USE as a poem. Just like a urinal wasn't a piece of art until Marcel Duchamp displayed it as art, signed by R. Mutt 1917.
People who "don't know how to use it" are confused by the difference between a map and the actual landscape. -
jesus christ, Linux has had a 100% LLM takeover.
this project is completely cooked.
even after the AI bubble pop, it's not clear how to recover from this level of bullshit from this level of bullshitter.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1099594/be20382b54a9b4cd/
> Linus Torvalds believes that blaming LLMs for the kernel community's problems is wrong, when the problem is LLM users who do not understand how to use them or how the kernel works. A properly trained LLM is a useful tool, but it takes a lot of time to reach that point.
> Torvalds and others repeatedly said low-quality contributions from new developers should receive low priority, and that the community should stop trying to make contribution easy. Many developers said, repeatedly, that trying to mentor those developers is almost always a waste of time; they do not listen.
> There is some concern about companies maintaining private kernels with LLM help, but there does not seem to be much to be done about it.
> Kernel developers should not be required to use LLMs to work in the community, but those who do need to have enough resources available to generate acceptable results.
The requirement to add Assisted-by tags to patches created with LLMs will be removed, but maintainers still want to know about how a patch was created.so how's it going already?
> The development community is struggling to keep up with the flood of security patches, and will continue to for some time. Some of the most urgent fixes may bypass maintainers and go straight to Torvalds. Maintainers were cautioned against telling their employers about vulnerabilities before public disclosure happens.
Really, I'm not out to suck ass as much as Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect.
@davidgerard @jaypatelani shame, I was on the cusp of switching to it
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jesus christ, Linux has had a 100% LLM takeover.
this project is completely cooked.
even after the AI bubble pop, it's not clear how to recover from this level of bullshit from this level of bullshitter.
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1099594/be20382b54a9b4cd/
> Linus Torvalds believes that blaming LLMs for the kernel community's problems is wrong, when the problem is LLM users who do not understand how to use them or how the kernel works. A properly trained LLM is a useful tool, but it takes a lot of time to reach that point.
> Torvalds and others repeatedly said low-quality contributions from new developers should receive low priority, and that the community should stop trying to make contribution easy. Many developers said, repeatedly, that trying to mentor those developers is almost always a waste of time; they do not listen.
> There is some concern about companies maintaining private kernels with LLM help, but there does not seem to be much to be done about it.
> Kernel developers should not be required to use LLMs to work in the community, but those who do need to have enough resources available to generate acceptable results.
The requirement to add Assisted-by tags to patches created with LLMs will be removed, but maintainers still want to know about how a patch was created.so how's it going already?
> The development community is struggling to keep up with the flood of security patches, and will continue to for some time. Some of the most urgent fixes may bypass maintainers and go straight to Torvalds. Maintainers were cautioned against telling their employers about vulnerabilities before public disclosure happens.
Really, I'm not out to suck ass as much as Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect.
@davidgerard "the problem is not in LLM but in how people uses LLM" from tech people gives me the same vibes as "the problem is not in communism but how people implemented communism" from soviet people. you're doing jihad extremely wrong kinda argument !
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@davidgerard Well. So much for the Year of the Linux Desktop.
@kawa @davidgerard approaching Skype levels of lining up the kick for years and then showing up too drunk and flinging a shoe into the sky instead
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@jookia@social.tchncs.de @davidgerard@circumstances.run @MaddieM4@raphus.social huh? what are you talking about? there's only one part talking about developers and it's at the fucking bottom of the page, it only occupies like 1/20th of the space. Everything else is showing the user experience.
get your eyes checked out, and your negative biases as well while you're at it
