People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google's Play store, without having to:
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@neil During the last five years, I spent a fairly significant amount of time developing an android app. I got a developer account and had an alpha release on the play store.
Unfortunately, personal circumstances took my focus away from it for some time, and by the time I got back to it, my account had been deleted after I hadn't responded to one of their requests.I found the sign up process unpleasant and intrusive, so the idea of going through it again is not appealing. Naturally, I thought about putting my app on another store. The idea of that company being in control of what I can provide to other people to run on their devices was enough to make me quit. I won't be releasing my work as long as this restriction is being held over us.
@neil I should add: even having said all that, I can at least acknowledge that there is a case for IDs being checked before permitting apps to ship via their own store. I wish it wasn't the same company that's harvesting so much other personal data, but I do think it is preferable that apps are not published with no verified responsible person.
Once again, I'd be a lot more comfortable if identity verification could be done by a provider of my choice with only a token being passed to the store.
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@neil I should add: even having said all that, I can at least acknowledge that there is a case for IDs being checked before permitting apps to ship via their own store. I wish it wasn't the same company that's harvesting so much other personal data, but I do think it is preferable that apps are not published with no verified responsible person.
Once again, I'd be a lot more comfortable if identity verification could be done by a provider of my choice with only a token being passed to the store.
@GerardThornley I am far less opinionated about whatever rules Google puts in place for Google's own app store.
My focus is really in ensuring that privacy respecting, alternatives exist, as this is good for both developers and users.
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@GerardThornley I am far less opinionated about whatever rules Google puts in place for Google's own app store.
My focus is really in ensuring that privacy respecting, alternatives exist, as this is good for both developers and users.
@neil Yes, quite. And that is what I thought your view would be.
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People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google's Play store, without having to:
* pay Google
* give government ID to Google
* agree to Google terms and conditionsPeople should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google's Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We've got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
Don't you have to agree to like 20 pages of terms and conditions before installing the sdks for android?
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People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google's Play store, without having to:
* pay Google
* give government ID to Google
* agree to Google terms and conditionsPeople should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google's Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We've got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
@neil thanks; the CMA form for reporting this in the UK was simple and easy, like most of the gov.uk sites. Done.
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@neil thanks; the CMA form for reporting this in the UK was simple and easy, like most of the gov.uk sites. Done.
@kw217 Excellent!
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@GrapheneOS @illumniscate @neil Thank you for confirming that. I assume it's the same then for Murena? @gael
@j2 @GrapheneOS @illumniscate @neil @gael Please note that Murena is a scam, this is not an honest project and it's dangerous to use it.
Old blog by a LineageOS dev, the issues with /e/a are not news : https://ewwlo.void.partidopirata.com.ar/
In this discussion on Hacker News, a user who has used Murena products confirms that /e/OS completely breaks Android's security model, signed with Google's test keys with an unlocked bootloader that cannot be locked, which would have been pointless since these test keys are not intended for production. Of course, users duped by Murena's misleading marketing will claim that this is not important and assert that the GrapheneOS project is toxic, but correcting misinformation has never been toxic behavior.
There are many other problems with /e/. Gael Duval is a scammer, and he, his team, and his community are involved in spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS and its users. In fact, the people in this Hacker News thread who are attacking GrapheneOS for things it doesn't do are users of /e/.
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@GrapheneOS @illumniscate @neil are you guys going to be adversely impacted by the updated semi-annual release schedule for AOSP, assuming Google's still planning that change?
@eigen @GrapheneOS @illumniscate @neil GrapheneOS is not affected by update issues, and thanks to their collaboration with a major Android OEM since June 2025, GrapheneOS can offer security preview releases. https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/27068-grapheneos-security-preview-releases
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People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google's Play store, without having to:
* pay Google
* give government ID to Google
* agree to Google terms and conditionsPeople should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google's Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We've got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
@neil
Not saying i agree with Google. But how is the OS community going to fight the forces of evil trying to hijack our code?Between malware labs, ai slop and slop powered malware labs, i am worried. The idea of making sure real accountable humans are writing honest code seems appealing....
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@GrapheneOS @illumniscate @neil Thank you for confirming that. I assume it's the same then for Murena? @gael
@j2 @illumniscate @neil Gaël Duval has extensively spread misinformation about GrapheneOS and /e/ to falsely market his products for his for-profit company. He has engaged in extensive libel and harassment towards our team. Here's an example of him linking to harassment content based on fabrications on a blatant neo-nazi conspiracy website, which he has done repeatedly:
https://archive.is/SWXPJ
https://archive.is/n4yTOPlease don't mention him in replies to us or otherwise involve him.
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@j2 @illumniscate @neil Gaël Duval has extensively spread misinformation about GrapheneOS and /e/ to falsely market his products for his for-profit company. He has engaged in extensive libel and harassment towards our team. Here's an example of him linking to harassment content based on fabrications on a blatant neo-nazi conspiracy website, which he has done repeatedly:
https://archive.is/SWXPJ
https://archive.is/n4yTOPlease don't mention him in replies to us or otherwise involve him.
@j2 @illumniscate @neil /e/ has poor privacy and extraordinarily bad security. It lacks basic privacy and security patches/protections. It isn't a safe option but rather is a grift not fit for purpose. Strongly recommend reading https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-standard-privacysecurity-patches-and-protections-arent-private and the linked sources. /e/ and Murena services are not safe and do not respect user privacy. They heavily mislead users about what's provided including relentlessly lying about highly important missing privacy/security patches/protections.
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@j2 @illumniscate @neil /e/ has poor privacy and extraordinarily bad security. It lacks basic privacy and security patches/protections. It isn't a safe option but rather is a grift not fit for purpose. Strongly recommend reading https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-standard-privacysecurity-patches-and-protections-arent-private and the linked sources. /e/ and Murena services are not safe and do not respect user privacy. They heavily mislead users about what's provided including relentlessly lying about highly important missing privacy/security patches/protections.
@j2 @illumniscate @neil /e/ is a fork of LineageOS, which is far less bad but not a privacy/security hardened OS. LineageOS is based on AOSP like GrapheneOS. AOSP isn't impacted by Google Play enforced restrictions on app installations, but it has been announced those can be turned off or bypassed by power users at least initially anyway. Some people integrate Google Play with privileged access into other operating systems like LineageOS where it may be relevant but they could bypass it.
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@GrapheneOS @illumniscate @neil are you guys going to be adversely impacted by the updated semi-annual release schedule for AOSP, assuming Google's still planning that change?
@eigen @illumniscate @neil We don't know if that's still planned and we'll be fine either way.
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People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google's Play store, without having to:
* pay Google
* give government ID to Google
* agree to Google terms and conditionsPeople should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google's Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We've got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
@neil keepandroidopen has to create a standard email to send to.
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People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google's Play store, without having to:
* pay Google
* give government ID to Google
* agree to Google terms and conditionsPeople should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google's Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We've got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
@neil
You're in the legal biz Neil (I think?): is this a question on which the Competition & Markets Authority have some jurisdiction? I guess, bcs Apple, it's not strictly creating a monopoly, but it's definitely restricting the market. -
People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google's Play store, without having to:
* pay Google
* give government ID to Google
* agree to Google terms and conditionsPeople should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google's Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We've got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
Can Android be saved?
I say no--it's too late. -
People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google's Play store, without having to:
* pay Google
* give government ID to Google
* agree to Google terms and conditionsPeople should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google's Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We've got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
@neil Any idea whether this would impact GrapheneOS users?
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People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google's Play store, without having to:
* pay Google
* give government ID to Google
* agree to Google terms and conditionsPeople should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google's Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We've got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
@neil
I'm with you on this. The list of disabled ('cos I can't uninstall) Google apps on my phone is impressively long and includes play services and play store. I rely on F-Droid and, heaven help me APKpure - which has both the additional apps I can't get from F-Droid but also the worlds biggest collection of UX anti patterns for flinging ads in every conceivable way and at all times. Hate it but still prefer it to Google.I hate this new proposal from Google but don't know what to do. Polite suggestions welcome
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@neil Any idea whether this would impact GrapheneOS users?
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@neil
Not saying i agree with Google. But how is the OS community going to fight the forces of evil trying to hijack our code?Between malware labs, ai slop and slop powered malware labs, i am worried. The idea of making sure real accountable humans are writing honest code seems appealing....
