Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@david_chisnall @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt
May I repeat David's (and other's) point, and politely request a response: what is the thinking behind this being on-by-default?
If it were off-by-default you'd have an easy argument to fend off the majority of criticism. If Mozilla management and devs sincerely think this is the future of browsers, add it in in all the ways you think it might be useful, but have it all off and very easily addable (as David outlined).
If it is really useful to people, users will be clamouring for it, and you can go from there.
I can think of no way it could make sense to have it on-by-default, unless you count the fact that in that scenario lots of less technical people will then simply put up with it, and be added to the stats of "AI users" on Firefox.
Am I missing something? How does it being on-by-default serve anyone, and in what specific ways does it serve them?
@jbc @david_chisnall @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt Heck, have a little non-modal wizard that pops up now and then and asks "Hey, it looks like you're trying to browse the web without AI! Would you like to turn that on for you?" with a little animated paperclip. That would *still* be more respectful of users' no-AI preferences than whatever the hell Mozilla has been doing.
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@heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari I didn't see the point in including options that were never going to be actioned. If anything, that would be extremely misleading.
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt this response is, quite honestly, terrifying—and your removal of other vocal critics in the thread is evidence you are aware of this.
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@angelfeast it seems like the right course is to disable translation by default when the kill switch is used. Allowing a way to re-enable specific AI features (like translation) whilst otherwise maintaining the kill switch seems the best of the available options.
In terms of the training of translation data, the project is here https://github.com/mozilla/translations. If my use of 'open' was wrong, I'm sorry for that, but I don't think it impacts the results. Or would that change people's 'yes' to a 'no'?
@firefoxwebdevs 1. i don't think it's fair to combine both options, since "completely disable" is not the same in principle as "allow re-enable".
2. that link does not make it easy for non-techies to find an answer to "is this trained on data that was ultimately gathered without consent". if a dataset is "open" that doesn't mean the data itself was, it just means that the scrapers are claiming it's fine actually. this would likely change many people's answers, judging by the tenor of the discussions happening in the comments.
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@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard
Missing option, if shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place. It should be an add-on that the user has to explicitly install.
A suspect lot of people voted for the, "but allow it to re-enabled," option due to it being the least shitty choice presented. Not because that is the behavior they actually desire.
@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard
How would you like to be beaten today? -
@angelfeast it seems like the right course is to disable translation by default when the kill switch is used. Allowing a way to re-enable specific AI features (like translation) whilst otherwise maintaining the kill switch seems the best of the available options.
In terms of the training of translation data, the project is here https://github.com/mozilla/translations. If my use of 'open' was wrong, I'm sorry for that, but I don't think it impacts the results. Or would that change people's 'yes' to a 'no'?
@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast yeah, finding out more about the sourcing of the data has promoted the translations to a "yeah, fuck that" despite all the open laundering you're engaging in
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt this response is, quite honestly, terrifying—and your removal of other vocal critics in the thread is evidence you are aware of this.
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt you could save us all a lot of time by stating in the original post a list of *very* common responses to Firefox AI initiatives which are "never going to be actioned"
JESUS CHRIST
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante
you might add : I want an "opt-in" button
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari then why not say up front that a popularly-requested option is not on the table? that would have made the poll more transparent.
@angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari I guess I assumed that it was a given that the options were, well… the options. I see that isn't the case, and will try and cater for that in future. Cheers!
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs AI tired
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@crowgirl @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @tante
I would regard that as interference.
According to the Firefox CEO, AI functionality in the browser should be optional and it should be easy for the user to switch off.
If that is the case, I don't care if it's built in, or separated into extensions, or not included at all.
@sibrosan @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @tante
Your trust in corporations will put you in harm's way as fascism worsens.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Why a poll?
As if you cared about any feedback. -
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt you could save us all a lot of time by stating in the original post a list of *very* common responses to Firefox AI initiatives which are "never going to be actioned"
JESUS CHRIST
@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt Did you seriously believe that unshipping a largely well-regarded feature like translations was on the table for Firefox 148?
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@firefoxwebdevs Why a poll?
As if you cared about any feedback.@240185 I've already used the results of this poll to push for change in the AI kill switch. The feedback was massively appreciated.
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@heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari I didn't see the point in including options that were never going to be actioned. If anything, that would be extremely misleading.
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari
Nobody *wants* a computer. I’m including phones there.
You get a computer 'cos you’ve got a *job* to do. So you get software to do the job. And you need to run the software on a computer, and it’ll have an operating system.
Neither the computer or the OS are supposed to be noticed.
If anyone notices your operating system, you've already lost.
I just got a new phone, a Fairphone. It supports alternate Android versions, e/os and PostmarketOS. Like, those are *officially* supported, not just hackish extras.
But I’ve kept it to completely stock Android 15, 'cos I need particular commercial apps, from the Google Play store, running on a standard system, to do my stuff.
I could muck around with an alternate system and hack the Play store onto it. Or I could not do that.
I’m used to mucking around, I’ve been on Linux since 2005. And I was on FreeBSD before that. (I moved when I noticed that all the stuff I was running was Linux binaries under emulation and Ubuntu had vastly superior package management.) I’ve got like *one* Windows app that doesn’t work in Wine, that’s the Kindle Previewer. I run it in a Windows 10 virtual machine.
Platforms *must* be transparent. All these platforms start transparent then some marketer goes NOTICE ME and they think they’re the star of the show. Windows did that. It’s got a job, it’s to run thirty years of all your old stuff! Now Windows 11 gets in your face and wants to be your *friend*.
Linux has always fallen at the fact that people have to notice it. But Windows and now even MacOS, especially with Liquid Ass, have gone hard into NOTICE ME. Linux is getting new users because it’s *less* annoying than Windows 11, even for running Windows software.
Even the stock Android 15 has delusions of stardom. No, I want the power button to be a power button, not a fucking Gemini button.
Firefox started as Phoenix, which was very much a blank slate browser. The Mozilla Suite was the open source version of Netscape 6/7, an AOL project, and extremely NOTICE ME. Phoenix’s whole selling point was it just appeared and there was the web. (That’s why they removed the splash screen.)
Chrome started the same way - blank slate, then it slowly decayed into NOTICE ME. Internet Explorer started the same way, IE4 versus Netscape Navigator going NOTICE ME. Then IE and Edge decayed into NOTICE ME.
Generative AI doesn't have a purpose, so it goes NOTICE ME and demands the user finds a use case for it. Then the people who think NOTICE ME is winning, not losing, don't understand why the users hate it so much.
Firefox is adding AI to go NOTICE ME. This is a loser strategy for losers. This is obvious to everyone who actually uses a web browser.
If anyone notices your web browser, you’ve already lost.
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@angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari I guess I assumed that it was a given that the options were, well… the options. I see that isn't the case, and will try and cater for that in future. Cheers!
@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast I mean, this is the same account that recently posted that they hope Firefox can regain the trust of its user base.
Nonsense like this isn't making that happen.
The choices as you present them are all, "AI code for everyone, but you can turn it off!" Except the kill switch feature doesn't even exist yet and you are already carving it up with exceptions. If your current trajectory holds true, and I'll bet good money it does, the kill switch is going to end up being nothing but exceptions, rendering it effectively useless.
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@angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari I guess I assumed that it was a given that the options were, well… the options. I see that isn't the case, and will try and cater for that in future. Cheers!
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari not addressing it is manipulative because it lets people assume that there is still room for negotiation when you've said there isn't (only after being repeatedly pressed on it).
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt Did you seriously believe that unshipping a largely well-regarded feature like translations was on the table for Firefox 148?
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt the missing option which you are responding to is "Missing option, if shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place. It should be an add-on that the user has to explicitly install"
I've been following your responses because (correct me if I'm wrong) you have not addressed any of the "make them all add-ons" responses.
It has been repeated ad nauseam with good reason considering the opt-in/consent issue with AI features
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@StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard Firefox only exists because Google subsidize them so they can point to FF as "proof" that Chrome isn't a monopoly. With the new regime in power, that's a dead issue. So Google want FF to push AI adoption now because they've figured out how to monetize it and they don't want precious eyeballs evading their slopware. If Google cut off their "search" payment to FF, Mozilla goes bust and the C-suite lose their jobs. QED.
@cstross @StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard ...has google figured out how to monetize it? I still only see nonconsensual unasked for ai results in my searches. I'm definitely not paying for any of that
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt the missing option which you are responding to is "Missing option, if shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place. It should be an add-on that the user has to explicitly install"
I've been following your responses because (correct me if I'm wrong) you have not addressed any of the "make them all add-ons" responses.
It has been repeated ad nauseam with good reason considering the opt-in/consent issue with AI features
@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt
Given the poll was about translations, the option you wanted would amount to unshipping a largely well-regarded feature.
Again, did you seriously and honestly believe that was on the table for Firefox 148?
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social Why are you missing the obvious option for "Keep all AI out of Firefox"?
