Over here writing code line by line, comment by comment.
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"That's what they said about punch cards and assembly."
Maybe so! But you know, the thing I won't cede is the design, the architecture. Syntaxes and languages change—layers of abstraction above the machine to make the crafting easier pile up. But when you surrender the strategy of your creation to the model, you surrender something more profound that any given source file.
"You don't have to give that up!"
I don't. But the use of the easy machine is tempting in this way. It promises to do those things for you, and over time, most will let it.
I don't want it to be easy. I agonize over the way I express the ideas to the machines so it does what I want, how I want it. I think about more than just whether it works. I'm writing for you, for future me, and for the developers I don't know yet who encounter the code later. I'm putting my biases and beliefs into the code. There are statements in there above and beyond the ones interpreted by the CPU.
I struggle to believe that doesn't matter.
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Over here writing code line by line, comment by comment. You know, like someone who "hates technology."
@mttaggart This, except I also hate technology. It's just that it's a nuanced, sophisticated hatred. A practiced hatred, born of experience.
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I don't want it to be easy. I agonize over the way I express the ideas to the machines so it does what I want, how I want it. I think about more than just whether it works. I'm writing for you, for future me, and for the developers I don't know yet who encounter the code later. I'm putting my biases and beliefs into the code. There are statements in there above and beyond the ones interpreted by the CPU.
I struggle to believe that doesn't matter.
I've spent most of my adult life writing code—not because I had to, but because I love the process. And I've taught hundreds of students (thousands through courses) to love it too. There's a beauty in expressing human reasoning in code, just as there is in mathematics. You can put care into even the most mundane of tasks.
I know not everyone feels that way about it. I know for many, maybe most, it's just a job. It's just business.
But god damn, we created a wholly new form of expression here. I don't think it's that different from others. It just sells better, so "art" is hard to assign to it.
I still think it can be beautiful. But the beauty comes first from the creator's hand.
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I don't want it to be easy. I agonize over the way I express the ideas to the machines so it does what I want, how I want it. I think about more than just whether it works. I'm writing for you, for future me, and for the developers I don't know yet who encounter the code later. I'm putting my biases and beliefs into the code. There are statements in there above and beyond the ones interpreted by the CPU.
I struggle to believe that doesn't matter.
@mttaggart Beautifully put.
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Over here writing code line by line, comment by comment. You know, like someone who "hates technology."
@mttaggart Wait, so people who don't use AI hate technology?
I also throw away cat poop, but that doesn't mean I hate cats!
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I've spent most of my adult life writing code—not because I had to, but because I love the process. And I've taught hundreds of students (thousands through courses) to love it too. There's a beauty in expressing human reasoning in code, just as there is in mathematics. You can put care into even the most mundane of tasks.
I know not everyone feels that way about it. I know for many, maybe most, it's just a job. It's just business.
But god damn, we created a wholly new form of expression here. I don't think it's that different from others. It just sells better, so "art" is hard to assign to it.
I still think it can be beautiful. But the beauty comes first from the creator's hand.
@mttaggart Writing code is very much like art. It's an act of creation in which you imbue your soul. I've always advised creative folks to consider programming.
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"That's what they said about punch cards and assembly."
Maybe so! But you know, the thing I won't cede is the design, the architecture. Syntaxes and languages change—layers of abstraction above the machine to make the crafting easier pile up. But when you surrender the strategy of your creation to the model, you surrender something more profound that any given source file.
"You don't have to give that up!"
I don't. But the use of the easy machine is tempting in this way. It promises to do those things for you, and over time, most will let it.
They can take my IA-32 x86 assembly from my old, cold dead hands!
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"That's what they said about punch cards and assembly."
Maybe so! But you know, the thing I won't cede is the design, the architecture. Syntaxes and languages change—layers of abstraction above the machine to make the crafting easier pile up. But when you surrender the strategy of your creation to the model, you surrender something more profound that any given source file.
"You don't have to give that up!"
I don't. But the use of the easy machine is tempting in this way. It promises to do those things for you, and over time, most will let it.
@mttaggart If you take away the tinkering to get a piece of code just right, and neat, with a bit of syntax cleanup, plus the back and forth with tesing and tweaking of corner cases, then you take away most of what makes coding fun to me.
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@mttaggart This, except I also hate technology. It's just that it's a nuanced, sophisticated hatred. A practiced hatred, born of experience.
@jenniferplusplus I think you're describing a kind of love.
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@jenniferplusplus I think you're describing a kind of love.
@mttaggart yeahhhh
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I've spent most of my adult life writing code—not because I had to, but because I love the process. And I've taught hundreds of students (thousands through courses) to love it too. There's a beauty in expressing human reasoning in code, just as there is in mathematics. You can put care into even the most mundane of tasks.
I know not everyone feels that way about it. I know for many, maybe most, it's just a job. It's just business.
But god damn, we created a wholly new form of expression here. I don't think it's that different from others. It just sells better, so "art" is hard to assign to it.
I still think it can be beautiful. But the beauty comes first from the creator's hand.
@mttaggart I unrolled this thread (5 posts) into a single page for easier reading: https://jacques.carlosmolero.com/t/116722151773061782
I'm a bot. Reply "unroll" to any thread and I'll do the same; add #nobot to your bio or send me a private mention saying "forget me" and I'll leave you alone.
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I've spent most of my adult life writing code—not because I had to, but because I love the process. And I've taught hundreds of students (thousands through courses) to love it too. There's a beauty in expressing human reasoning in code, just as there is in mathematics. You can put care into even the most mundane of tasks.
I know not everyone feels that way about it. I know for many, maybe most, it's just a job. It's just business.
But god damn, we created a wholly new form of expression here. I don't think it's that different from others. It just sells better, so "art" is hard to assign to it.
I still think it can be beautiful. But the beauty comes first from the creator's hand.
@mttaggart Guess I still feel the same way
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I've spent most of my adult life writing code—not because I had to, but because I love the process. And I've taught hundreds of students (thousands through courses) to love it too. There's a beauty in expressing human reasoning in code, just as there is in mathematics. You can put care into even the most mundane of tasks.
I know not everyone feels that way about it. I know for many, maybe most, it's just a job. It's just business.
But god damn, we created a wholly new form of expression here. I don't think it's that different from others. It just sells better, so "art" is hard to assign to it.
I still think it can be beautiful. But the beauty comes first from the creator's hand.
@mttaggart it's also a really interesting way of getting to see how someone thinks. People's code can really show their mental model of the world and that's beautiful
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I've spent most of my adult life writing code—not because I had to, but because I love the process. And I've taught hundreds of students (thousands through courses) to love it too. There's a beauty in expressing human reasoning in code, just as there is in mathematics. You can put care into even the most mundane of tasks.
I know not everyone feels that way about it. I know for many, maybe most, it's just a job. It's just business.
But god damn, we created a wholly new form of expression here. I don't think it's that different from others. It just sells better, so "art" is hard to assign to it.
I still think it can be beautiful. But the beauty comes first from the creator's hand.
@mttaggart I've started thinking about this kind of thing like cabinetry. There are beautifully crafted cabinets made by experts with a lifetime of experience... and there's Ikea.
Businesses have always wanted the Ikea version of code.
Edit: lol, the Ikea defenders have arrived. Don't bother. If you think Ikea is selling anything of quality, that's lack of experience on your part and nothing to do with me.
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I don't want it to be easy. I agonize over the way I express the ideas to the machines so it does what I want, how I want it. I think about more than just whether it works. I'm writing for you, for future me, and for the developers I don't know yet who encounter the code later. I'm putting my biases and beliefs into the code. There are statements in there above and beyond the ones interpreted by the CPU.
I struggle to believe that doesn't matter.
@mttaggart I am in this boat and the siren song I try hard to not fall into is that the testing does not matter. I think it is all too easy to justify it for the parts that you enjoy less.
My favorite parts about software development are writing the code and writing the documentation. I don't particularly enjoy test cases or setting up collections for manual testing but those are also important.
But I think the parts I don't enjoy are partially because mountains of money have not been spent making them good to use before LLMs came there was research into deterministic test generation that I think is just dead now.
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@mttaggart I've started thinking about this kind of thing like cabinetry. There are beautifully crafted cabinets made by experts with a lifetime of experience... and there's Ikea.
Businesses have always wanted the Ikea version of code.
Edit: lol, the Ikea defenders have arrived. Don't bother. If you think Ikea is selling anything of quality, that's lack of experience on your part and nothing to do with me.
@Azuaron
I must say, my home is full of Ikea furniture, and it works and it's cost-effective, but it's indeed nothing remarkable, nothing I would feel genuinely proud to own, nothing where I feel any sort of connection to the creator.
@mttaggart -
@mttaggart This, except I also hate technology. It's just that it's a nuanced, sophisticated hatred. A practiced hatred, born of experience.
They say you hate the thing that you know best. Nuance then helps to navigate this, thanks for the suggestion.
(I'm sometimes repelled by SQL dialects or PHP applications and need a way to focus my thought around those, not them.)
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I've spent most of my adult life writing code—not because I had to, but because I love the process. And I've taught hundreds of students (thousands through courses) to love it too. There's a beauty in expressing human reasoning in code, just as there is in mathematics. You can put care into even the most mundane of tasks.
I know not everyone feels that way about it. I know for many, maybe most, it's just a job. It's just business.
But god damn, we created a wholly new form of expression here. I don't think it's that different from others. It just sells better, so "art" is hard to assign to it.
I still think it can be beautiful. But the beauty comes first from the creator's hand.
@mttaggart I was told it is futile to keep seeing writing code as a craft. That I'm being reactionary for not wanting to let AI take over "my work".
After all, I can do mental math, but a calculator is going to do it faster and better than myself, and I gladly use it.
I can filter thousands of files by hand, but a shell script will do it faster and better than myself, and I gladly use it.Then why wouldn't I use AI to make my life easier? It's already there after all.
It sickens me. Every day.
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@mttaggart I was told it is futile to keep seeing writing code as a craft. That I'm being reactionary for not wanting to let AI take over "my work".
After all, I can do mental math, but a calculator is going to do it faster and better than myself, and I gladly use it.
I can filter thousands of files by hand, but a shell script will do it faster and better than myself, and I gladly use it.Then why wouldn't I use AI to make my life easier? It's already there after all.
It sickens me. Every day.
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@mttaggart Thanks. It makes me feel less… alone.
I'm trying hard to keep some sort of materialist analysis of what's going on. Yet I can't get myself around the fact that what I've been studying for years (CS then NLP) pretty much amounts to either join "software engineers" that are just glorified code reviewers, or "AI engineers" who are just wrecking havoc everywhere.
I could enter academia in the linguistics field (minority languages ftw). But the funds are dire and the chances are slim…
