I just registered my kid for fall school athletics, and now feel like Heracles returning from the underworld with Cerberus on his back.
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@inthehands As an added note; The labour issues were starting to grow as a problem anyway - we passed the point where "Learn to code" was a path to a stable career before the slop, as far as I can tell;
and the identity issues... really, how can you have that much of an ego about it when you occasionally get outdone by - or seriously work alongside in the FOSS side of things - a literal child or teenager, who's not even out of grade school yet?I mean, there are some absolutely absurd egos in the tech world, so. But big picture yes.
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I mean, there are some absolutely absurd egos in the tech world, so. But big picture yes.
@inthehands Yeah, there are some, but, that's the case with.. basically everything. I haven't noticed that being a thing on the scale of the entire population though - more than an attribute common to the most spoiled and richest, and occasionally found in others, but, not much worse in general than like... among real engineers, lawyers, physicists, whatever other 'male'-dominated "thinky" sort of career
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OK, I guess I wasn't done after all.
Much of the opining about developer backlash to LLMs falls into two loose theoretical categories:
(1) Labor problem: developers now experience employment threat, loss of job security, layoffs, new levels of worry about the future
(2) Identity problem: developers used to feel special because generating code was placed on a cultural pedestal (sign of a special third brain lobe or whatever), that perceived specialness was a pillar of our personal identity, and now our egos are bruised because machines can do it and we don’t feel special anymore
While there’s doubtless truth to both of those in some / many cases, I posit a third theory:
(3) Purpose problem: contrary to popular belief, developers actually care quite a lot about the people who use our software and we derive a sense of purpose and meaning from doing what we believe to be good work; the current environment undermines that, not just LLMs but LLMs as part of a broader vortex of enshittification, and our world is effectively saying “everything you cared about doesn't matter, you can't hope to fight to make it matter, and you are stupid for caring”
I think there's evidence for that last theory in the kinds of despair you hear from developers: not just anxiety about paying the bills, not just angry feather-puffing, but a kind of existential despair that comes from the unraveling of one’s internal sense of purpose and meaning.
4/3
@inthehands I think the (3) "purpose problem" doesn't adequately characterize it.
It's not about our purpose. If our non-programming selves and everyone else would be fine without us having to make software, this "loss of purpose" would not be a big deal.
The problem is that the things we care about are bound to software working right. Not exposing our privacy. Not breaking and losing our data. Not exploiting wetware bugs in our brains to serve evil people's political and economic goals. Not policing who we can communicte with and what we see. Not erasing our history and rewriting it out from under us. Etc.
Software will not work right when it's vomited by machines owned by and serving the interests of our enemies.
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@inthehands
Software was troubled before LLMs offered to fix it. Many have enumerated the causes but all seem beyond repair. I’ve offered my solutions which all seem dated. One has only ask, who benefits from the disfunction?I believe the answer to that very good question is: The terminally dysfunctional Villionaires of Silicon Valley.
One need only look at the people who have succeeded over the years in technology monopolization to see the symptoms of a mental health disorder that causes one to become a Tech Villionaire: Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Ross Perot, Steve Jobs, John McAfee, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Sam Altman, Peter Thiel...
The list goes on with a parade of obsessive unethical perverse anti-social sociopath narcissistic behaviors beyond the pale.
These truly weird involuted obsessive creatures of the night are like vampires sucking the life out of the global economy while creating legions of dysfunctional thralls hanging on their every malign word as they promise, like Annie, that tomorrow is just a day away if we would but turn a blind eye and empty our wallets today to buy Snake Oil 0.x fresh from the pump-and-dump before we miss out on the next new thing like rubes.
That's who. And nobody else, but.
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@inthehands Here is a good faith argument in favor of AI assisted coding. We, the blind community, have been asking for years to make accessibility a priority in software development. For decades we've heard "it’s not on the roadmap". So we decided, with the help of AI, to take matters into our own hands.
@ysotomayor
@inthehands I would absolutely put the lack of accessibility in existing software front and center in the "software is already terrible" category. It's more of a cultural priority issue than a technical lift issue, but it's part and parcel of no one caring about UI design in general. -
I’ve been thinking a lot about the gulf between people who think LLMs can cut 90% of the cost of software development or whatever and people who think that’s a pile of catastrophes balanced on top of a nonsense wish.
I think a lot of that chasm boils down to the fact that software is already •terrible•, and people have very different feelings about that. I don't just mean “Liquid Glass is ugly” terrible; I mean “it’s broken and insecure and unreliable and just doesn't flipping WORK” terrible, like Arbiter Sports.
We are right now in a war between people who think software should treat humans humanely and people who are perfectly willing to offload their development costs onto captive users in the form of wasted time, anger, anxiety, and other forms of personal harm even more severe than those. That war was raging well before LLMs entered the picture, but LLMs drove it to fever pitch. I’m extremely skeptical of the idea that LLMs make any significant positive contribution to the long-term speed or cost of writing •good• software, but they clearly have the potential to lower the floor for •bad• software to unheard-of levels at unheard-of speeds. How you feel about that fact probably predicts a lot about how you feel about the “LLMs can 10x software dev!” hype.
3/3
@inthehands
Unfortunately, Gresham's Law also applies to software. -
I just registered my kid for fall school athletics, and now feel like Heracles returning from the underworld with Cerberus on his back.
WOW is that online registration platform bad software.
1/3
@inthehands I hear you. Ours is Bound, which seems *deeply* routed into school districts at this point.
I do not wish this time away, but let's just say that when I am finally done with the umpteen systems I have accounts for to manage my kids' journey through school, I will be quite glad.
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OK, I guess I wasn't done after all.
Much of the opining about developer backlash to LLMs falls into two loose theoretical categories:
(1) Labor problem: developers now experience employment threat, loss of job security, layoffs, new levels of worry about the future
(2) Identity problem: developers used to feel special because generating code was placed on a cultural pedestal (sign of a special third brain lobe or whatever), that perceived specialness was a pillar of our personal identity, and now our egos are bruised because machines can do it and we don’t feel special anymore
While there’s doubtless truth to both of those in some / many cases, I posit a third theory:
(3) Purpose problem: contrary to popular belief, developers actually care quite a lot about the people who use our software and we derive a sense of purpose and meaning from doing what we believe to be good work; the current environment undermines that, not just LLMs but LLMs as part of a broader vortex of enshittification, and our world is effectively saying “everything you cared about doesn't matter, you can't hope to fight to make it matter, and you are stupid for caring”
I think there's evidence for that last theory in the kinds of despair you hear from developers: not just anxiety about paying the bills, not just angry feather-puffing, but a kind of existential despair that comes from the unraveling of one’s internal sense of purpose and meaning.
4/3
@inthehands I'm definitely in the (3) crowd, but I wanted to say something about (2). I've never thought of coding as some special thing that made me better than others. However, I have thought of coding as something that's a lot of fun to geek out about. Now that LLMs are doing it, it's not a bruised ego, but a profound sense of loss related to no one wanting to talk about coding anymore.
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I’ve been thinking a lot about the gulf between people who think LLMs can cut 90% of the cost of software development or whatever and people who think that’s a pile of catastrophes balanced on top of a nonsense wish.
I think a lot of that chasm boils down to the fact that software is already •terrible•, and people have very different feelings about that. I don't just mean “Liquid Glass is ugly” terrible; I mean “it’s broken and insecure and unreliable and just doesn't flipping WORK” terrible, like Arbiter Sports.
We are right now in a war between people who think software should treat humans humanely and people who are perfectly willing to offload their development costs onto captive users in the form of wasted time, anger, anxiety, and other forms of personal harm even more severe than those. That war was raging well before LLMs entered the picture, but LLMs drove it to fever pitch. I’m extremely skeptical of the idea that LLMs make any significant positive contribution to the long-term speed or cost of writing •good• software, but they clearly have the potential to lower the floor for •bad• software to unheard-of levels at unheard-of speeds. How you feel about that fact probably predicts a lot about how you feel about the “LLMs can 10x software dev!” hype.
3/3
@inthehands
> I’m extremely skeptical of the idea that LLMs make any significant positive contribution to the long-term speed or cost of writing •good• software, but they clearly have the potential to lower the floor for •bad• software to unheard-of levels at unheard-of speeds
️ -
OK, I guess I wasn't done after all.
Much of the opining about developer backlash to LLMs falls into two loose theoretical categories:
(1) Labor problem: developers now experience employment threat, loss of job security, layoffs, new levels of worry about the future
(2) Identity problem: developers used to feel special because generating code was placed on a cultural pedestal (sign of a special third brain lobe or whatever), that perceived specialness was a pillar of our personal identity, and now our egos are bruised because machines can do it and we don’t feel special anymore
While there’s doubtless truth to both of those in some / many cases, I posit a third theory:
(3) Purpose problem: contrary to popular belief, developers actually care quite a lot about the people who use our software and we derive a sense of purpose and meaning from doing what we believe to be good work; the current environment undermines that, not just LLMs but LLMs as part of a broader vortex of enshittification, and our world is effectively saying “everything you cared about doesn't matter, you can't hope to fight to make it matter, and you are stupid for caring”
I think there's evidence for that last theory in the kinds of despair you hear from developers: not just anxiety about paying the bills, not just angry feather-puffing, but a kind of existential despair that comes from the unraveling of one’s internal sense of purpose and meaning.
4/3
@inthehands as a software engineer myself: yep, 100%
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OK, I guess I wasn't done after all.
Much of the opining about developer backlash to LLMs falls into two loose theoretical categories:
(1) Labor problem: developers now experience employment threat, loss of job security, layoffs, new levels of worry about the future
(2) Identity problem: developers used to feel special because generating code was placed on a cultural pedestal (sign of a special third brain lobe or whatever), that perceived specialness was a pillar of our personal identity, and now our egos are bruised because machines can do it and we don’t feel special anymore
While there’s doubtless truth to both of those in some / many cases, I posit a third theory:
(3) Purpose problem: contrary to popular belief, developers actually care quite a lot about the people who use our software and we derive a sense of purpose and meaning from doing what we believe to be good work; the current environment undermines that, not just LLMs but LLMs as part of a broader vortex of enshittification, and our world is effectively saying “everything you cared about doesn't matter, you can't hope to fight to make it matter, and you are stupid for caring”
I think there's evidence for that last theory in the kinds of despair you hear from developers: not just anxiety about paying the bills, not just angry feather-puffing, but a kind of existential despair that comes from the unraveling of one’s internal sense of purpose and meaning.
4/3
@inthehands Two things I've heard (I'm developer-adjacent) that I think have merit:
- concerns from people about their own thinking/development skills atrophying through vibe coding (or I guess for new folk never being developed)
- the amount of time spent working out what the hell the AI actually did so they can debug it.
With I guess the corollary that the first one makes the second harder.
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OK, I guess I wasn't done after all.
Much of the opining about developer backlash to LLMs falls into two loose theoretical categories:
(1) Labor problem: developers now experience employment threat, loss of job security, layoffs, new levels of worry about the future
(2) Identity problem: developers used to feel special because generating code was placed on a cultural pedestal (sign of a special third brain lobe or whatever), that perceived specialness was a pillar of our personal identity, and now our egos are bruised because machines can do it and we don’t feel special anymore
While there’s doubtless truth to both of those in some / many cases, I posit a third theory:
(3) Purpose problem: contrary to popular belief, developers actually care quite a lot about the people who use our software and we derive a sense of purpose and meaning from doing what we believe to be good work; the current environment undermines that, not just LLMs but LLMs as part of a broader vortex of enshittification, and our world is effectively saying “everything you cared about doesn't matter, you can't hope to fight to make it matter, and you are stupid for caring”
I think there's evidence for that last theory in the kinds of despair you hear from developers: not just anxiety about paying the bills, not just angry feather-puffing, but a kind of existential despair that comes from the unraveling of one’s internal sense of purpose and meaning.
4/3
@inthehands A question that follows is: "why do so many developers use them anyway?" Besides requirements for work of course.
I think part of it is maintainer burnout. Expectations of the world put on their shoulders, but they don't want to let users down, but they don't feel they can keep going, so they end up using LLMs. The problem is, if they're already burnt out, they go on autopilot. Rather than take much-needed R&R, there's a (real or imagined) perception that "if I don't do this, who will?" and "will my reputation suffer if I do this?" and also "what will happen to end users?"
Then there's another angle.
I believe that most developers care about their users. This is broadly true.
I think it must be said though, that plenty hold users in contempt as beneath them, and the project is about getting themselves recognised, or another line on their CV, something to add to the "open source projects" part of it, etc.
And you know, that also explains why many developers use LLMs, too.
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OK, I guess I wasn't done after all.
Much of the opining about developer backlash to LLMs falls into two loose theoretical categories:
(1) Labor problem: developers now experience employment threat, loss of job security, layoffs, new levels of worry about the future
(2) Identity problem: developers used to feel special because generating code was placed on a cultural pedestal (sign of a special third brain lobe or whatever), that perceived specialness was a pillar of our personal identity, and now our egos are bruised because machines can do it and we don’t feel special anymore
While there’s doubtless truth to both of those in some / many cases, I posit a third theory:
(3) Purpose problem: contrary to popular belief, developers actually care quite a lot about the people who use our software and we derive a sense of purpose and meaning from doing what we believe to be good work; the current environment undermines that, not just LLMs but LLMs as part of a broader vortex of enshittification, and our world is effectively saying “everything you cared about doesn't matter, you can't hope to fight to make it matter, and you are stupid for caring”
I think there's evidence for that last theory in the kinds of despair you hear from developers: not just anxiety about paying the bills, not just angry feather-puffing, but a kind of existential despair that comes from the unraveling of one’s internal sense of purpose and meaning.
4/3
@inthehands It seems like software engineering could really borrow a lot from other engineering fields. Build a professional organization with certifications and licensing and ethics. Formalize continuing education and licensure requirements. Put your license on the line for the work you perform. And where you can, unionize.
I work with a bunch of mechanical and electrical engineers who work their asses off to make sure a vending machine won't become a projectile in an 8G acceleration. Yet we have no end of problems getting the software on the HVAC to not go into Maxxximum Extreme HyperCooling mode to bring the cabin temperature to a 74F setpoint when the passenger doors open and bring in a wave of 75F outside air.
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OK, I guess I wasn't done after all.
Much of the opining about developer backlash to LLMs falls into two loose theoretical categories:
(1) Labor problem: developers now experience employment threat, loss of job security, layoffs, new levels of worry about the future
(2) Identity problem: developers used to feel special because generating code was placed on a cultural pedestal (sign of a special third brain lobe or whatever), that perceived specialness was a pillar of our personal identity, and now our egos are bruised because machines can do it and we don’t feel special anymore
While there’s doubtless truth to both of those in some / many cases, I posit a third theory:
(3) Purpose problem: contrary to popular belief, developers actually care quite a lot about the people who use our software and we derive a sense of purpose and meaning from doing what we believe to be good work; the current environment undermines that, not just LLMs but LLMs as part of a broader vortex of enshittification, and our world is effectively saying “everything you cared about doesn't matter, you can't hope to fight to make it matter, and you are stupid for caring”
I think there's evidence for that last theory in the kinds of despair you hear from developers: not just anxiety about paying the bills, not just angry feather-puffing, but a kind of existential despair that comes from the unraveling of one’s internal sense of purpose and meaning.
4/3
@inthehands i think 3 is the central concern for artists and creative writers as well.
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@inthehands when it dawns on people that LLMs work by inputting existing (shitty-working) software and outputting probable combinations of the same (shitty-working) software, it becomes clear what a massive failure of a concept it is to begin with.
then, think about the trillions of dollars corporations have invested in making it A Thing.
just wow.
The problem is that any idiot can type "Create a program that registers kids in sportsball leagues."
The human solution was a professional development team who would ask questions like "how do you want to validate the phone number?", and "Which fields are required?" They would sometimes write rational default behavior for error handling or other unspecified conditions.
A clanker kind of knows but often doesn't care. And the idiot doesn't know the difference.
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The software in question is Arbiter Sports (arbitersports.com).
The headliner among the •numerous• software flaws I encountered in this single registration process: the site fails form validation when making subsequent edits — or no edits, just resaving unchanged! — to a form that the system •had already accepted•.
The only user-visible message is “Required Information Missing.” (There was no required info missing; again, it already passed validation.) The problem, visible only in the Javascript console, was that the site was rejecting non-alphanumeric characters in a phone number it had pulled from its own database.
The fix was to make some keystrokes in the offending field to force the site’s Javascript to re-sanitize it for the back end.
2/3
@inthehands I recently had to deal with a contact form on a website that kept saying "invalid value" when pressing submit
(developer tools showed the POST request returned JSON with a key "success" that always had value true, and an errors array that contained an error string that validation failed, but didn't provide any specifics)
eventually I tried removing & (ampersand) and " (double quote) from the message I wrote and it finally worked
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OK, I guess I wasn't done after all.
Much of the opining about developer backlash to LLMs falls into two loose theoretical categories:
(1) Labor problem: developers now experience employment threat, loss of job security, layoffs, new levels of worry about the future
(2) Identity problem: developers used to feel special because generating code was placed on a cultural pedestal (sign of a special third brain lobe or whatever), that perceived specialness was a pillar of our personal identity, and now our egos are bruised because machines can do it and we don’t feel special anymore
While there’s doubtless truth to both of those in some / many cases, I posit a third theory:
(3) Purpose problem: contrary to popular belief, developers actually care quite a lot about the people who use our software and we derive a sense of purpose and meaning from doing what we believe to be good work; the current environment undermines that, not just LLMs but LLMs as part of a broader vortex of enshittification, and our world is effectively saying “everything you cared about doesn't matter, you can't hope to fight to make it matter, and you are stupid for caring”
I think there's evidence for that last theory in the kinds of despair you hear from developers: not just anxiety about paying the bills, not just angry feather-puffing, but a kind of existential despair that comes from the unraveling of one’s internal sense of purpose and meaning.
4/3
@inthehands I feel that LLMs are really good at showing who did it for money and who did it for the art.
There's a depressing amount of people that did it for the money.
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OK, I guess I wasn't done after all.
Much of the opining about developer backlash to LLMs falls into two loose theoretical categories:
(1) Labor problem: developers now experience employment threat, loss of job security, layoffs, new levels of worry about the future
(2) Identity problem: developers used to feel special because generating code was placed on a cultural pedestal (sign of a special third brain lobe or whatever), that perceived specialness was a pillar of our personal identity, and now our egos are bruised because machines can do it and we don’t feel special anymore
While there’s doubtless truth to both of those in some / many cases, I posit a third theory:
(3) Purpose problem: contrary to popular belief, developers actually care quite a lot about the people who use our software and we derive a sense of purpose and meaning from doing what we believe to be good work; the current environment undermines that, not just LLMs but LLMs as part of a broader vortex of enshittification, and our world is effectively saying “everything you cared about doesn't matter, you can't hope to fight to make it matter, and you are stupid for caring”
I think there's evidence for that last theory in the kinds of despair you hear from developers: not just anxiety about paying the bills, not just angry feather-puffing, but a kind of existential despair that comes from the unraveling of one’s internal sense of purpose and meaning.
4/3
@inthehands on point 3, agreed. And, a secret: there might be a national campaign coming this fall aimed at addressing just that. Stay tuned.
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@inthehands I feel that LLMs are really good at showing who did it for money and who did it for the art.
There's a depressing amount of people that did it for the money.
@gudenau @inthehands librarian co-worker asked if I played with AI.
I said Nope. That not being a librarian (being asked for all kinds of summaries of information and being expected to be up to date on how information is processed and delivered) made it easier, but .... it usedso many resources. 0We have many, many opions and habits in common so I hope this botehred him. -
OK, I guess I wasn't done after all.
Much of the opining about developer backlash to LLMs falls into two loose theoretical categories:
(1) Labor problem: developers now experience employment threat, loss of job security, layoffs, new levels of worry about the future
(2) Identity problem: developers used to feel special because generating code was placed on a cultural pedestal (sign of a special third brain lobe or whatever), that perceived specialness was a pillar of our personal identity, and now our egos are bruised because machines can do it and we don’t feel special anymore
While there’s doubtless truth to both of those in some / many cases, I posit a third theory:
(3) Purpose problem: contrary to popular belief, developers actually care quite a lot about the people who use our software and we derive a sense of purpose and meaning from doing what we believe to be good work; the current environment undermines that, not just LLMs but LLMs as part of a broader vortex of enshittification, and our world is effectively saying “everything you cared about doesn't matter, you can't hope to fight to make it matter, and you are stupid for caring”
I think there's evidence for that last theory in the kinds of despair you hear from developers: not just anxiety about paying the bills, not just angry feather-puffing, but a kind of existential despair that comes from the unraveling of one’s internal sense of purpose and meaning.
4/3
@inthehands Well said!
