I would like to escape from systemd.
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@marcusxms Take a look at this article for possibilities: https://itsfoss.com/systemd-free-distros/
@IzzyChambers @marcusxms cross indexing that with https://noai.starlightnet.work/list.html gets you Gentoo and Chimera. Chimera uses some tooling from FreeBSD(‽) so Gentoo might be the more straightforward migration for someone who’s already used to Linux. -
I would like to escape from systemd. Two options considered were Artix and Void, but Artix is on Twitter and Void is heavily reliant on M$ GitHub. But a plus is that the latter is on Mastodon as well.
Are there more progressive options? I'd prefer rolling release, fairly bleeding edge and ideally precompiled packages are available. Main socials are in the fediverse and hosting is e.g. forgejo/gitea/codeberg. A policy against LLMs would be great, too.
@marcusxms I like #alpinelinux running edge (rolling) for a linux workstation. Their main social is IRC and they have their infra on Gitlab, but I think they're still lacking an LLM policy. I believe it's causing a bit of a rift in their community right now
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I would like to escape from systemd. Two options considered were Artix and Void, but Artix is on Twitter and Void is heavily reliant on M$ GitHub. But a plus is that the latter is on Mastodon as well.
Are there more progressive options? I'd prefer rolling release, fairly bleeding edge and ideally precompiled packages are available. Main socials are in the fediverse and hosting is e.g. forgejo/gitea/codeberg. A policy against LLMs would be great, too.
@marcusxms can I ask why you want to avoid systemd?
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I would like to escape from systemd. Two options considered were Artix and Void, but Artix is on Twitter and Void is heavily reliant on M$ GitHub. But a plus is that the latter is on Mastodon as well.
Are there more progressive options? I'd prefer rolling release, fairly bleeding edge and ideally precompiled packages are available. Main socials are in the fediverse and hosting is e.g. forgejo/gitea/codeberg. A policy against LLMs would be great, too.
@marcusxms Alpine! It's fast, fun, and is easy yo use! They host on Gitlab, which isn't Codeberg, but it's better than Github.
Also, it's Norwegian! That's not really a selling point, I just think Norway is super pretty.
You could also try Devuan testing/unstable. Not sure where they host, though.
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I would like to escape from systemd. Two options considered were Artix and Void, but Artix is on Twitter and Void is heavily reliant on M$ GitHub. But a plus is that the latter is on Mastodon as well.
Are there more progressive options? I'd prefer rolling release, fairly bleeding edge and ideally precompiled packages are available. Main socials are in the fediverse and hosting is e.g. forgejo/gitea/codeberg. A policy against LLMs would be great, too.
@marcusxms I run Alpine nowadays. It does everything I want in a Linux distribution (desktop, server, embedded). If it wasn't for Alpine and it being an "easy button" of sorts for someone that's been using Linux for a long time I'd be running FreeBSD.
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@marcusxms can I ask why you want to avoid systemd?
@benjaminlj In no particular order they're eagerly using LLMs for development, they were extremely early in making changes to prepare for age data gathering (verification) even when no laws were passed (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954 , reviewed by claude), and finally I don't particularly like it as an init system, and how it increasingly takes over more parts of the system, which to me should be independently handled so it's less tightly coupled and I can mix and match components as I please.
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@benjaminlj In no particular order they're eagerly using LLMs for development, they were extremely early in making changes to prepare for age data gathering (verification) even when no laws were passed (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954 , reviewed by claude), and finally I don't particularly like it as an init system, and how it increasingly takes over more parts of the system, which to me should be independently handled so it's less tightly coupled and I can mix and match components as I please.
@benjaminlj At least I seem to recall that e.g. the California law mentioned was only in the proposal stage and not in effect. Either way, I think they should've fought back, but instead they seemed to eagerly embrace it, helping its adoption.
As for the init system I just don't particularly like systemd unit/service files, so I'm curious to try out openrc, runit, s6 and/or dinit. I've seen devs of s6 and openrc in the fediverse so that already gives me a good impression of those.
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@IzzyChambers @marcusxms cross indexing that with https://noai.starlightnet.work/list.html gets you Gentoo and Chimera. Chimera uses some tooling from FreeBSD(‽) so Gentoo might be the more straightforward migration for someone who’s already used to Linux.
@fedward @IzzyChambers Thanks, I've never tried Gentoo so that could be fun, but I did try compiling everything on FreeBSD once and I think I might get tired of it because I'd like to update often, so I was hoping for pre-compiled packages to also be an option.
Chimera I hadn't looked at yet, thanks for the tip!
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@marcusxms I like #alpinelinux running edge (rolling) for a linux workstation. Their main social is IRC and they have their infra on Gitlab, but I think they're still lacking an LLM policy. I believe it's causing a bit of a rift in their community right now
.@kingocounty I've tried Alpine in a CI and I was just starting to consider that as a good contender for my server but didn't actually consider it for a good solution for a personal computer with as a daily driver, running a normal desktop with vms, possibly games and such. But maybe it's just fine for that?
IRC is great, and GitLab beats GitHub even though they're racing down the hill fast, shitting on their employees and eagerly promoting LLMs: https://about.gitlab.com/blog/gitlab-act-2/
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@marcusxms Alpine! It's fast, fun, and is easy yo use! They host on Gitlab, which isn't Codeberg, but it's better than Github.
Also, it's Norwegian! That's not really a selling point, I just think Norway is super pretty.
You could also try Devuan testing/unstable. Not sure where they host, though.
@cocaine_owlbear Great to hear! Are you using it as a personal computer with a desktop environment and such? I've tried it in a CI and I'm starting to consider it a strong contender for a server, but I had never really thought it was useful as a personal computer too? But maybe it is?
I like Norway!
Devuan sadly seems to not be a great project ideologically speaking as pointed out by someone in the comments. I'd also like something more like Arch or Fedora in terms of package versions.
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@marcusxms I run Alpine nowadays. It does everything I want in a Linux distribution (desktop, server, embedded). If it wasn't for Alpine and it being an "easy button" of sorts for someone that's been using Linux for a long time I'd be running FreeBSD.
@RootMoose Alright, that's great to hear! It being good for desktop is news to me!
I used to run FreeBSD on a server and I had a good impression of it. I think I mostly switched away just to try something else, which has frequently been the reason, not always with good results.
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@benjaminlj At least I seem to recall that e.g. the California law mentioned was only in the proposal stage and not in effect. Either way, I think they should've fought back, but instead they seemed to eagerly embrace it, helping its adoption.
As for the init system I just don't particularly like systemd unit/service files, so I'm curious to try out openrc, runit, s6 and/or dinit. I've seen devs of s6 and openrc in the fediverse so that already gives me a good impression of those.
@marcusxms okay, thanks for clarifying. I've not yet fully understood how they would ever actually make any restrictions based on age but then again, I know very little of the subject.
I've been planning on using podman quadlets for #Folkeføderation, but that's based on systemd. (I agree that the file format is quite terrible compared to good old docker compose!) Perhaps I should look a bit more for alternatives
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@cocaine_owlbear Great to hear! Are you using it as a personal computer with a desktop environment and such? I've tried it in a CI and I'm starting to consider it a strong contender for a server, but I had never really thought it was useful as a personal computer too? But maybe it is?
I like Norway!
Devuan sadly seems to not be a great project ideologically speaking as pointed out by someone in the comments. I'd also like something more like Arch or Fedora in terms of package versions.
@marcusxms I'm not currently running it, but it does make an excellent desktop OS. While it is more designed with servers in mind, its lightness and minimalism translate to fast startups and excellent responsiveness in desktops. I've run Gnome, Plasma, and XFCE desktops on it, all fast and surprisingly stable.
I would like to give it another go and try a Niri/QuickShell setup some time, but I'm running weird stuff on my laptop rn.
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@marcusxms I'm not currently running it, but it does make an excellent desktop OS. While it is more designed with servers in mind, its lightness and minimalism translate to fast startups and excellent responsiveness in desktops. I've run Gnome, Plasma, and XFCE desktops on it, all fast and surprisingly stable.
I would like to give it another go and try a Niri/QuickShell setup some time, but I'm running weird stuff on my laptop rn.
@cocaine_owlbear Curiously enough I'd very likely precisely run Niri and QuickShell in it.
I wish that QuickShell had builtin Niri support, so one doesn't have to set it all up manually. But I read the main dev is now open to adding official Niri support, so that's great.
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@RootMoose Alright, that's great to hear! It being good for desktop is news to me!
I used to run FreeBSD on a server and I had a good impression of it. I think I mostly switched away just to try something else, which has frequently been the reason, not always with good results.
@marcusxms Alpine doesn't get enough mention as a desktop client. It has full featured versions of all the standard desktops in the repos and they are easily installed using the setup-desktop script. I'm running Plasma and LXQt these days but have run Gnome in the past.
We'll see what happens as Gnome gets more and more reliant on systemd and if teams keep making the effort to create work arounds.
At least KDE has made a statement that they have no intentions of abandoning non-systemd distributions and also it is now considered "the standard" desktop for FreeBSD so that bodes well for continued Plasma utility in non-systemd distributions... I guess.
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@marcusxms okay, thanks for clarifying. I've not yet fully understood how they would ever actually make any restrictions based on age but then again, I know very little of the subject.
I've been planning on using podman quadlets for #Folkeføderation, but that's based on systemd. (I agree that the file format is quite terrible compared to good old docker compose!) Perhaps I should look a bit more for alternatives
@benjaminlj I'm also using podman but that's currently with compose, both because I prefer how it works to docker, and because docker is getting too dominant and perhaps getting increasingly more commercial I don't know?
Haven't tried quadlets, I guess they're more lightweight(?) which is good. From what I understand the podman team is mostly focused on running in kubernetes clusters but I would like to reduce complexity in my setups and use more lightweight solutions, not the opposite.
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@marcusxms okay, thanks for clarifying. I've not yet fully understood how they would ever actually make any restrictions based on age but then again, I know very little of the subject.
I've been planning on using podman quadlets for #Folkeføderation, but that's based on systemd. (I agree that the file format is quite terrible compared to good old docker compose!) Perhaps I should look a bit more for alternatives
@benjaminlj I don't know how they plan to make restrictions based on age either. I guess it's more broadly about identifying users and their activities online, perhaps.
Of course that PR doesn't do anything like that, but if they eagerly adopt it they seem far from where my values are and it makes me wary of what else they might do. Besides approving/making changes to a core part of my system with LLMs.
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@benjaminlj I'm also using podman but that's currently with compose, both because I prefer how it works to docker, and because docker is getting too dominant and perhaps getting increasingly more commercial I don't know?
Haven't tried quadlets, I guess they're more lightweight(?) which is good. From what I understand the podman team is mostly focused on running in kubernetes clusters but I would like to reduce complexity in my setups and use more lightweight solutions, not the opposite.
@marcusxms not sure if it's more lightweight - it's just another specification of which containers should run in which order. Very much like compose, but less readable.
The main advantages to as I see it is that if a container is specified to run systemd ensures it is running. That way you don't have to run "compose up" commands from time to time when stuff goes down. Also the logs are automatically picked up by journald, which I think is cool.
That's why I think it would be a good match for Folkeføderation. That, and that it's still a lot simpler than kubernetes
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@benjaminlj I don't know how they plan to make restrictions based on age either. I guess it's more broadly about identifying users and their activities online, perhaps.
Of course that PR doesn't do anything like that, but if they eagerly adopt it they seem far from where my values are and it makes me wary of what else they might do. Besides approving/making changes to a core part of my system with LLMs.
@marcusxms right. I understand your suspensions.
One thought though: it's gotten quite a backlash after this PR. Do you think people will fork systemd, drop the commit and build distros like Debian using that fork?
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@cocaine_owlbear Curiously enough I'd very likely precisely run Niri and QuickShell in it.
I wish that QuickShell had builtin Niri support, so one doesn't have to set it all up manually. But I read the main dev is now open to adding official Niri support, so that's great.
@marcusxms Well, once you get it set up, you'll have your dot files, so that's something.
