Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Way to manually enable and disable extensions from toolbar would be good -
@firefoxwebdevs @xela I read earlier that everything goes into english so that if I translate something from swedish to norwegian, two very closely related languages firefox will translate from swedish into english, then from english into norwegian, this is per definition a shitty feature that introduces a ton of vagueries, and multiplies errors by over a magnitude, but I guess as an english speaker something like that would never occur to you, because you don't have to deal with the shitty consequences of such an anglocentric decision.
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@firefoxwebdevs @xela If you didn't think it was great you would do the sensible thing and develop them as addons rather than including them into the executable to pump up the number of people seen using it...
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@firefoxwebdevs @mawhrin @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard
Well, yes, the poll output is inaccurate.
There was no „Dont put any AI in Firefox“ or „Make AI an Add-On only“ option. You’re framing of the poll presupposes there being AI in the product, implying an incorrect necessity.
Why are you ruining this browser with this crap?
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@firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt
I didn’t see the poll before this post, but my number one request to Mozilla remains the same:
Stop using the term ‘AI’ anywhere.
It is a meaningless marketing term pushed by the worst parts of the tech industry. Don’t use a catch all for a bunch of unrelated things, name them individually and explain to users why they should care (if you can’t, don’t ship them at all). And make all of them off by default.
Feel free to pop up a dialog saying ‘This page is in a language that you haven’t said you speak, Firefox has optional on-device translation models trained ethically (see here for more information)k would you like to install them? (If you decide not to, you can change this decision later in settings) [ Never install translation models ] [ Never install translation models for this language ] [ Install translation model for this language ] [ Automatically install translation models for any language ]’.
Similarly, if a user hovers over an image with no alt text, feel free to pop up a dialog saying ‘This image has no text description. Firefox has an on-device image-recognition model that is ethically trained (see here for more information) that can attempt to provide one automatically. Would you like to install it? If you do not, you can later install it from settings. [ Do not install image-recognition model ] [ Install image-recognition model ]’.
And, in both of these cases, pop up that dialog at most once.
See how neither of these needed to say ‘AI’? Because they were explaining what the model did and why. This is how you communicate with users if you care about users more than you care about investors and hype trains.
@david_chisnall @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt
May I repeat David's (and other's) point, and politely request a response: what is the thinking behind this being on-by-default?
If it were off-by-default you'd have an easy argument to fend off the majority of criticism. If Mozilla management and devs sincerely think this is the future of browsers, add it in in all the ways you think it might be useful, but have it all off and very easily addable (as David outlined).
If it is really useful to people, users will be clamouring for it, and you can go from there.
I can think of no way it could make sense to have it on-by-default, unless you count the fact that in that scenario lots of less technical people will then simply put up with it, and be added to the stats of "AI users" on Firefox.
Am I missing something? How does it being on-by-default serve anyone, and in what specific ways does it serve them?
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs yes but let users enable just translations. Rationale: if they're disabled unconditionally, you're holding useful functionality hostage until the user disables the killswitch. If they're enabled unconditionally, they set a precedent that "AI" features disregarding the killswitch is sometimes okay, and then we're back to arguing with you about what "sometimes" means. Let the user decide by *explicitly* overriding the killswitch for whatever features they actually want.
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
@duke_of_germany I ditched Firefox for a combo of Waterfox and Librewolf long enough ago that I forget what it was that made me do so, it was before they started playing footsie with AI... probably the baked-in telemetry, or something like that... whatever it was, it made me ditch T-bird as well.
AND yes, Mozilla should not be messing with AI _at all_.
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Just give me an easy to find switch that removes _all_ LLM and "AI"-features in Firefox, thank you.
@knud @firefoxwebdevs No, put it in an extension so that it won't be "magically reenabled" like all the other ml options I kept having to disable when I was still using firefox...
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@zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard My interpretation of the poll results is that the vast majority of people feel that the translation engine should be disabled as part of an AI kill switch, but there should be a way to re-enable the translation engine whilst leaving the kill switch otherwise active.
@firefoxwebdevs @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard the poll was misleading and i am sure i am not the only one who voted to re-enable the translation because it wasn't fully clear what that meant. if i could revoke my vote i would.
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@firefoxwebdevs Where's the option for "I do not want this bullshit toy anywhere near my browser"? Is someone forcing you at gunpoint to be pro-slop? Why are all the executives so into this crap? Can't we just let them have their cocaine daydreams without subject the rest of us to it?
@StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs the correct answer to that poll is switch to @Waterfox
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@bjn @StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard Wasn't it Mark Zuckerberg of whom it was said, in the early days of Facebook, "if you're not paying for the product you ARE the product"?
@cstross @StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard My first encounter with the idea was reading Chomsky in the 1980s, in relation to media. The idea is likely way older.
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@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante BOTH (2) and (3).
The Mozilla I want is one that would pre-install uBlock Origin. An effective adblocker furthers Mozilla's purported mission of "put[ting] control of the internet back in the hands of the people using it" way more than any LLM nonsense.
@tommorris @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante
LibreWolf is a popular fork that pre-installs UBO
I've been using it daily for months
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@tommorris @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante
LibreWolf is a popular fork that pre-installs UBO
I've been using it daily for months
@rzeta0 @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante yup, I like LibreWolf a lot, although I'm testing out Zen more at the moment.
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@m0rpk @firefoxwebdevs you have it completely backwards, AI should be opt in not opt out
@redfernmike @m0rpk @firefoxwebdevs But that way they can't validate their CEOs ego by telling them how many people are "using" the Clanker.
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@firefoxwebdevs @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard the poll was misleading and i am sure i am not the only one who voted to re-enable the translation because it wasn't fully clear what that meant. if i could revoke my vote i would.
@angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard as in, you don't think there should be an option to re-enable it, or that it should be enabled by default?
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante It depends...
Stuff like the small model they have for language translations, it's ok to be built in, this is a major accessibility feature.Third party models that are subscription services, or running as self hosted services, but that require user to acquire and configure on the browser for it to work (off by default), can be integrated within the browser, as long as they are extensions to other non-ai browser features.
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@joepie91 I think a lot of people in the replies would consider this sneaky. It's a tricky UX problem. But yes, granular control needs to be part of the solution, along with a kill switch.
@firefoxwebdevs @joepie91 Just like making a poll that has no option for having no in the options in the first place right?... right?...
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@angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard as in, you don't think there should be an option to re-enable it, or that it should be enabled by default?
@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet
failure to address this bit:
> the poll was misleading
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@cstross @bjn @StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard it's older than that. The phrase dates from "free" broadcast TV at least.
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@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante It depends...
Stuff like the small model they have for language translations, it's ok to be built in, this is a major accessibility feature.Third party models that are subscription services, or running as self hosted services, but that require user to acquire and configure on the browser for it to work (off by default), can be integrated within the browser, as long as they are extensions to other non-ai browser features.
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante
Other AI features that are not extensions to non-ai features, and are not similar to the language translation feature using a local small model, should definitively be a browser extension.
