I think #Signal seems to be a really good app.
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@leanderlindahl True and that is something that 'bothers' me as well. I already struggled to get people to switch from WhatsApp to Signal. Now asking them to switch to something European feels like too much to ask.
#privacy minded #Alternatives from #Europe would be i.e. @delta @matrix or @threemaapp
@rraggl @delta @matrix @threemaapp exactly, that's why its so unfortunate that people promote Signal in the context of European digital sovereignty. It's such a brittle thing getting the trust of friends, family and neighbours to switch, and then "waste it" (their willingness to be uncomfortable and switch) on US tech.
Its not about whether you like Signal or not. It seems great. But it in no way whatsoever strengthens an independent European tech landscape.
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I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl Using Signal takes people away from large corporations and gives them private communication. So Signal does offer something after all. As long as the programme's code is open and encryption mathematically protects the transmission of messages, the US government is irrelevant.
Yes, it could be said that switching to Signal means that alternatives will not get users. But today it is difficult to persuade anyone to switch to something else
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@leanderlindahl Using Signal takes people away from large corporations and gives them private communication. So Signal does offer something after all. As long as the programme's code is open and encryption mathematically protects the transmission of messages, the US government is irrelevant.
Yes, it could be said that switching to Signal means that alternatives will not get users. But today it is difficult to persuade anyone to switch to something else
@leanderlindahl I would choose software something like this:
1. FOSS/European
2. Software from other democracies (Canada, Japan, etc.)
3. Proprietary software from the US
4. Software from enemies (Russia, China) -
@leanderlindahl Using Signal takes people away from large corporations and gives them private communication. So Signal does offer something after all. As long as the programme's code is open and encryption mathematically protects the transmission of messages, the US government is irrelevant.
Yes, it could be said that switching to Signal means that alternatives will not get users. But today it is difficult to persuade anyone to switch to something else
@Distante so you can promote it for digital privacy and "no to big tech" purposes.
But it still does zero nada zilch for promoting European digital sovereignty. I would even claim that switching people to Signal does the opposite, since those users will be less likely to switch again to a European product, having already switched once.
Please promote signal as "US privacy software". But not as European digital sovereignty. It's OK to like signal. But it's wrong to say it helps our sovereignty
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@Distante so you can promote it for digital privacy and "no to big tech" purposes.
But it still does zero nada zilch for promoting European digital sovereignty. I would even claim that switching people to Signal does the opposite, since those users will be less likely to switch again to a European product, having already switched once.
Please promote signal as "US privacy software". But not as European digital sovereignty. It's OK to like signal. But it's wrong to say it helps our sovereignty
@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
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@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
@Distante it becomes even more difficult for a strong player to emerge when we channel everyone into Signal. That's my point.
But when we bring this up the counter argument is always that Signal has good privacy and UX. That it's not big tech. I completely agree with the first two points.
It still does nothing what so ever to promote the emergence of one or more strong European alternatives, but the opposite.
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@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
@Distante #DeltaChat, it is decentralized, doesn't require phone numbers or any private data, onboarding is smooth much easier than in signal, similar UI (it is a signal fork) it has much better multi-device and multi-profile support, secure in-chat mini-apps like notepads, to-do lists, shopping lists, etc
there are alternatives, but they will not gain momentum if you don't promote them and stop misinforming people selling a centralized silo running on amazon as #sovereign
@leanderlindahl -
@leanderlindahl Even worse: Signal has to use AWS for their world wide deployment as only those Hyperscalers are able to provide this kind of service around the world.
There are some big European players like OVH or Hetzner but none of them can provide data centers on every continent.
There’s simply no European solution at the moment.
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@Distante #DeltaChat, it is decentralized, doesn't require phone numbers or any private data, onboarding is smooth much easier than in signal, similar UI (it is a signal fork) it has much better multi-device and multi-profile support, secure in-chat mini-apps like notepads, to-do lists, shopping lists, etc
there are alternatives, but they will not gain momentum if you don't promote them and stop misinforming people selling a centralized silo running on amazon as #sovereign
@leanderlindahl -
I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl This is why I always recommend Matrix instead, and preferably some other instance than matrix.org so as to not centralize too much.
Alas, sometimes there really aren't any instances possible to join and then it's either the central one or setting up your own - and not everyone are in a position to do the latter.
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@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
Signal can mathematically know who talks to whom, when, who sends images, what groups exist, because those are all direct connections from the app to the server. This means the US government has the possibility to know all of this. Signal is excellent but you have to do your homework and know your threat model: if US authorities are on the "malicious" part of it then Signal isn't a solution -
@leanderlindahl Even worse: Signal has to use AWS for their world wide deployment as only those Hyperscalers are able to provide this kind of service around the world.
There are some big European players like OVH or Hetzner but none of them can provide data centers on every continent.
There’s simply no European solution at the moment.
@kaibojens @leanderlindahl
Don't fall for the lies. Instant messaging doesn't need hyperscalers. Audio and video conferencing doesn't need hyperscalers, they need good network. Signal excusing itself with "we need hyperscalers" is just an excuse for centralizing all the communications. We don't need european hyperscalers because we don't need centralized communications. -
I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl also it demands a phone number (SIM card) to set up an account, which is the antithesis to be able to have undercover communication in upcoming fascism and surveillance states
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Signal can mathematically know who talks to whom, when, who sends images, what groups exist, because those are all direct connections from the app to the server. This means the US government has the possibility to know all of this. Signal is excellent but you have to do your homework and know your threat model: if US authorities are on the "malicious" part of it then Signal isn't a solution
@rakoo privacy != anonymity
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@rakoo privacy != anonymity
@Distante sentences >> words -
@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
@Distante Aside from @delta you also have @matrix and @threemaapp
There is also @briar
Delta I like because it is decentralized and has a KISS approach.
https://blog.feld.me/posts/2025/03/deltachat-is-actually-good-though/
Thats not saying the others are bad. Threema is centralized which I personally would rather avoid. It means a SPOF
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I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl
Yes.
A good, secure and simple german alternative to WhatsApp and Signal is #deltachat
https://delta.chat/
They are in the fediverse too:
@delta -
@Distante sentences >> words
@rakoo Anonymity, privacy and security are different things
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@Distante Aside from @delta you also have @matrix and @threemaapp
There is also @briar
Delta I like because it is decentralized and has a KISS approach.
https://blog.feld.me/posts/2025/03/deltachat-is-actually-good-though/
Thats not saying the others are bad. Threema is centralized which I personally would rather avoid. It means a SPOF
@rraggl @delta @matrix @threemaapp @briar That's great. How many of your friends have you persuaded to pay for the app or learn about decentralisation?
No one is looking for anonymity. People want privacy at best
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@rakoo Anonymity, privacy and security are different things
@Distante yes, and in the context of the discussion when the US gov declares you as an enemy signal might provide security but not the others
