One of the key negative impacts of mandatory bike helmet laws is that they are essentially a death sentence for bike share programs.
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@james There's large variation between cultures / regions.
Here in Denmark cycling with a small child on the bike is often reported to attract less shitty behaviour from car drivers. My anecdotal experience agrees.
However. In summer we get a LOT of foreign tourists. And when encountering people driving cars with foreign plates effect seems be gone.
It's worse with rental cars (often Brits and Americans) but I think those are often just genuinely badly educated drivers.
@Pepijn @juliette I’ve never cycled in Denmark, but when I’ve visited I’ve always liked how cycle- and pedestrian-friendly it is. (We’ve also never driven there, so are innocent of that one). I’ve always had the sense that Danish culture places a lot more value on time and play outdoors, too. I don’t know how true that actually is, and whether that feeds into cycling/pedestrian culture.
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One of the key negative impacts of mandatory bike helmet laws is that they are essentially a death sentence for bike share programs.
Those programs win because they are convenient and encourage spontaneous cycling. That just doesn’t work if a person has to carry a helmet everywhere just in case they decide to cycle. Tourists are not going to pack a bulky helmet. Shared helmets are a hygiene nightmare.
Protect cyclists with bike infrastructure. That’s what works.
#helmets@juliette Not least also that drivers tend to drive closer to cyclists wearing helmets as they feel they are protected. Kind of lazy logic.
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@Pepijn @juliette I’ve never cycled in Denmark, but when I’ve visited I’ve always liked how cycle- and pedestrian-friendly it is. (We’ve also never driven there, so are innocent of that one). I’ve always had the sense that Danish culture places a lot more value on time and play outdoors, too. I don’t know how true that actually is, and whether that feeds into cycling/pedestrian culture.
@james Come visit again, bring a bike!
There's variation depending on big cities (excellent bike infrastructure, good networks) and the more rural areas (randomly really good infrastructure and then a tunnel that leads to a.. busy car commuter road).
I think overal most Danes either cycle themselves or have family members that do. So they're all used to it being something that belongs in the public space.
I'm going to think a bit about "value on time and play outdoors". Dunno
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@billschulz here’s the science behind my statement. It’s not a vibe, it’s widely documented with data: https://rothar.ie/blogs/velostories/thehelmetparadox
@juliette may I suggest you actually read the references cited in that (clearly partisan) blog post. It's not 'data', it's an exercise in cherry-picking, with very little to support your argument. To be clear, I don't care whether cycle helmets are mandatory or not. I ride with a helmet because I am required to do so, but so much of the opposing view is heart-felt, common sense - and wrong! Do better.
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@s0 not sure if you saw the link I shared in other replies - studies have shown that mandatory helmet laws reduce cycling overall, and as quantity of cyclists directly impacts safety of cycling. I’m not saying helmets don’t improve safety, but that mandatory helmet laws as public policy (instead of recommended helmet campaigns for example) is demonstrably counterproductive.
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@james Come visit again, bring a bike!
There's variation depending on big cities (excellent bike infrastructure, good networks) and the more rural areas (randomly really good infrastructure and then a tunnel that leads to a.. busy car commuter road).
I think overal most Danes either cycle themselves or have family members that do. So they're all used to it being something that belongs in the public space.
I'm going to think a bit about "value on time and play outdoors". Dunno
@juliette @Pepijn Not quite sure I could (or even want to) get my ancient and heavy bike over there, but might try hiring one next time.
I do go for runs though, and note same thing everywhere, sometimes it’s really good infrastructure, sometimes you find yourself running on the edge of an horrendously busy road.
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@james Come visit again, bring a bike!
There's variation depending on big cities (excellent bike infrastructure, good networks) and the more rural areas (randomly really good infrastructure and then a tunnel that leads to a.. busy car commuter road).
I think overal most Danes either cycle themselves or have family members that do. So they're all used to it being something that belongs in the public space.
I'm going to think a bit about "value on time and play outdoors". Dunno
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@billschulz @juliette bicycle helmets don’t really do much to protect a rider except for low speed falls.
Close passes by cars are more likely when helmeted.
Overall health benefits of cycling outweigh individual risk.
The small protections that bicycle helmets afford would offer similar benefits to pedestrians, who also experience low speed falls. Nobody thinks pedestrian helmets should be mandatory. Not even for the elderly!
Can exacerbate neck injuries due to additional rotational forces.
@daycoder @juliette Low speed impacts, translated to the skull, will kill you quite effectively. (and a bicycle, on any ordinary day, can quite easily enable a high speed impact). Yes, pedestrians are not required to wear helmets. The human race has been standing on two legs a lot longer than we've been riding two wheeled devices. We can stand quite comfortably on two feet. Less reliably on two wheels. I don't have a problem with opposing mandatory helmet laws, just with poorly supported arguments against them.
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@Pepijn @juliette Hahaha. I’m not a weird stalker, but saw that ages ago and it sits at the intersection of my interests in local government, LEGO, and running. I actually tried to work out where it was so I could check it out on a run when I was in Billund. (And to reassure you, even if I was a weird stalker, I’m not a very good one, I didn’t work out where it was.)
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@Pepijn @juliette Hahaha. I’m not a weird stalker, but saw that ages ago and it sits at the intersection of my interests in local government, LEGO, and running. I actually tried to work out where it was so I could check it out on a run when I was in Billund. (And to reassure you, even if I was a weird stalker, I’m not a very good one, I didn’t work out where it was.)
@james Ok, I laughed out loud at that
I think someone actually shared a link in the thread I did on it. And then you could go there and get my email address from the contact sticker on the pump..
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@Luu @juliette
Mandatory helmet laws are probably not getting anyone to buy a car, but most people need a car for some things. Convenience is a huge determining factor for using the bicycle or the car for the rest.Also, to end parking subsidies, you first need to have parking subsidies. At home I park on private property. The grocery store owns their parking lot, and they are not going to charge for using it, because then people are going to shop at their competitor across the road. And work usually either has their own parking lot of pays for parking spaces. The last place I worked, I had a "parking card", even though I only used it once or twice per year when my bicycle needed repairs. They didn't ask if I needed one, I worked there, so I had one.
But anyway, you're attempting a misdirection - mandatory bicycle helmet laws do not change anything about parking, and parking is irrelevant to the well known results of such laws.
@leeloo @juliette 1/2 If a supermarket or any business is required to provide parking, whether for customers or employees, are effectively subsidizing that parking.
When a country or city stops doing this, the reduction of cars is dramatic. I personal experience with a company where, for every eight employees who didn't use a parking space (transport paid for by the firm), the savings funded a bonus equivalent to a full salary.
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@leeloo @juliette 1/2 If a supermarket or any business is required to provide parking, whether for customers or employees, are effectively subsidizing that parking.
When a country or city stops doing this, the reduction of cars is dramatic. I personal experience with a company where, for every eight employees who didn't use a parking space (transport paid for by the firm), the savings funded a bonus equivalent to a full salary.
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@Luu @juliette
Mandatory helmet laws are probably not getting anyone to buy a car, but most people need a car for some things. Convenience is a huge determining factor for using the bicycle or the car for the rest.Also, to end parking subsidies, you first need to have parking subsidies. At home I park on private property. The grocery store owns their parking lot, and they are not going to charge for using it, because then people are going to shop at their competitor across the road. And work usually either has their own parking lot of pays for parking spaces. The last place I worked, I had a "parking card", even though I only used it once or twice per year when my bicycle needed repairs. They didn't ask if I needed one, I worked there, so I had one.
But anyway, you're attempting a misdirection - mandatory bicycle helmet laws do not change anything about parking, and parking is irrelevant to the well known results of such laws.
@leeloo @juliette 2/2 this was possible because the site had been reconfigured to replace a parking lot with an additional building. That setup also led to staggered schedules rather than rush-hour commuting.
The helmet issue isn't going to stop you from using a bicycle or moped when you go somewhere else, if especially considering that parking can end up costing almost as much as renting a car, don't rent a car.
The first step is not to subsidize parking, Tokyo, the Netherlands, Switzerland... -
@leeloo @juliette 2/2 this was possible because the site had been reconfigured to replace a parking lot with an additional building. That setup also led to staggered schedules rather than rush-hour commuting.
The helmet issue isn't going to stop you from using a bicycle or moped when you go somewhere else, if especially considering that parking can end up costing almost as much as renting a car, don't rent a car.
The first step is not to subsidize parking, Tokyo, the Netherlands, Switzerland... -
@daycoder @juliette Low speed impacts, translated to the skull, will kill you quite effectively. (and a bicycle, on any ordinary day, can quite easily enable a high speed impact). Yes, pedestrians are not required to wear helmets. The human race has been standing on two legs a lot longer than we've been riding two wheeled devices. We can stand quite comfortably on two feet. Less reliably on two wheels. I don't have a problem with opposing mandatory helmet laws, just with poorly supported arguments against them.
@daycoder @juliette this is evidence, perhaps relevant in the Danish/Euro context. https://ugeskriftet.dk/dmj/potential-impact-mandatory-helmet-when-biking
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@daycoder @juliette this is evidence, perhaps relevant in the Danish/Euro context. https://ugeskriftet.dk/dmj/potential-impact-mandatory-helmet-when-biking
@billschulz @daycoder this analyzes impact of wearing helmet on accidents, but ignores impact of helmet laws on overall cycling.
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@daycoder @juliette this is evidence, perhaps relevant in the Danish/Euro context. https://ugeskriftet.dk/dmj/potential-impact-mandatory-helmet-when-biking
@billschulz @daycoder one of the primary drivers of bike safety is the amount of other cyclists around you. If you introduce mandatory helmets, you reduce the amount of cyclists. there is a direct correlation. Looking only at injury data is an incomplete picture.
