everyone should realize that e-scooters are a physically risky form of transport, especially when driven above about 20km/h.
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@adub I'm frustrated by how much money we put into bikes. We could put that into decent transportation like a train or more buses! Things that don't involve showing up at work exhausted and sweaty and with horrible helmet hair, that don't become dangerous due to ice most of the year
@Canageek @adub Numbers and budget documents, please.
Redrafted to add explanation:
It is not quite as much of a zero-sum game as you may think. Separated bike lanes are capital infrastructure which comes from a different pot than the operating funds needed to improve bus services (which, in Toronto, is run by its own agency that operates somewhat separately). Public transportation also has its own source of revenue, fares.
Like seriously if you're going to nickel-and-dime this stuff you need to show me actual budget numbers and explain policy-wise how that even works.
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@Canageek @adub Numbers and budget documents, please.
Redrafted to add explanation:
It is not quite as much of a zero-sum game as you may think. Separated bike lanes are capital infrastructure which comes from a different pot than the operating funds needed to improve bus services (which, in Toronto, is run by its own agency that operates somewhat separately). Public transportation also has its own source of revenue, fares.
Like seriously if you're going to nickel-and-dime this stuff you need to show me actual budget numbers and explain policy-wise how that even works.
@nev I get very frustrated with those "different pots of money" issues (I work in academia, we have SO MANY of those) as 90% of the time they are made up.
I have to charge people to use equipment that's owned by the department. So we are taking money already inside the university and paying ourselves to use our own equipment. It's all made up in most cases!
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bicycles have always struck physicists (e.g. me!) as almost miraculous. they are simultaneously:
• dynamically elegant,
• mechanically simple,
• energetically near-optimal, and
• extraordinarily cheap, as a conveyance.YES I DO LOVE BICYCLES. so should everyone, tbh.
with the added proviso that not everyone can ride a bicycle and that's OK. humanity will always need other transportation options. we just aren't anywhere close to bikemaxxing yet and we should be.
@adub I read up to the first parenthesis and started wondering why physicists in particular have a propensity for being involved in collisions with bicycles
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@geonz @adub And I'm not picky about how mass transit's done, I'm in favor of buses, street cars, skytrains, subways, ferries, and gondolas. Plus I'm sure there are mass transit options I've never heard of.
But it if gets public funding it should be accessible to everyone, for example, people with asthma like me. Not just the fraction of society capable of biking multiple km every day
@Canageek @geonz @adub don't forget or underestimate the role of bike and pedestrian infrastructure for access to public transportation. They don't stop at most peoples front door or destination, having safer infrastructure to get to and from public transport helps making it a lot more accessible!
Plus everyone that pickes up a bicycle instead of driving makes way for public transportation to become more reliable.
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everyone should realize that e-scooters are a physically risky form of transport, especially when driven above about 20km/h. if you fall off, you're going to have facial trauma at a minimum. just ask my 50-something brother who got stuck with a big dental bill. ALWAYS wear a FULL FACE HELMET on these things - a bike helmet isn't enough. and NEVER EVER ride with MORE THAN ONE RIDER on board.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/e-scooters-pediatrician-survey-9.7305210
Every time I see someone zip past on one of those scooters my stomach drops.
The center of gravity is all wrong, the tiny front wheel to obstacle ratio, the insane speeds...
I'm all in on micromobility. But those things just feel viscerally dangerous to me.
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@Canageek @geonz @adub don't forget or underestimate the role of bike and pedestrian infrastructure for access to public transportation. They don't stop at most peoples front door or destination, having safer infrastructure to get to and from public transport helps making it a lot more accessible!
Plus everyone that pickes up a bicycle instead of driving makes way for public transportation to become more reliable.
@wsslmn @geonz @adub I mean, that is a good point, but I would argue that means we don't have enough bus stops, and either you put the bikes on the front of the bus (Designs I've seen can only hold 2 bikes) or put them inside, which removes 2-5 people of capacity, possibly more of you pack people in like in Montreal or Prague (the places I've been with really heavily packed buses).
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everyone should realize that e-scooters are a physically risky form of transport, especially when driven above about 20km/h. if you fall off, you're going to have facial trauma at a minimum. just ask my 50-something brother who got stuck with a big dental bill. ALWAYS wear a FULL FACE HELMET on these things - a bike helmet isn't enough. and NEVER EVER ride with MORE THAN ONE RIDER on board.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/e-scooters-pediatrician-survey-9.7305210
@adub 100%. Knew a guy that got his front wheel stuck on a bump riding his scooter that speed, toppled over it in an instant, right on his face. He had the dental work, and two broken arms on top of that.
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@wsslmn @geonz @adub I mean, that is a good point, but I would argue that means we don't have enough bus stops, and either you put the bikes on the front of the bus (Designs I've seen can only hold 2 bikes) or put them inside, which removes 2-5 people of capacity, possibly more of you pack people in like in Montreal or Prague (the places I've been with really heavily packed buses).
@Canageek @geonz @adub or put bike racks at bus stops?
More bus stops also means, more stopping, weaving in and out of traffic, generally a longer and less reliable bus connection. There is a case having a lot of bus stops, but people also value a connection that is reliable.
There will always be some kind of trade off, but saver connecting infrastruce is generally a win-win situation.
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@Canageek @geonz @adub or put bike racks at bus stops?
More bus stops also means, more stopping, weaving in and out of traffic, generally a longer and less reliable bus connection. There is a case having a lot of bus stops, but people also value a connection that is reliable.
There will always be some kind of trade off, but saver connecting infrastruce is generally a win-win situation.
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@wsslmn @geonz @adub I mean, I also want to tax vehicles by weight (increasing at the scale of road damage, so by the square or mass^4 depending on who's numbers you believe), charge a fee for cars with only one person in them per km, and eventually ban private vehicle ownership all together.
(Which is also why I'm so down on bikes: I don't think they scale well to "the entire population" as to many people have medical conditions or are just out of shape, and to much of Canada gets icy roads.)
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@wsslmn @geonz @adub I mean, I also want to tax vehicles by weight (increasing at the scale of road damage, so by the square or mass^4 depending on who's numbers you believe), charge a fee for cars with only one person in them per km, and eventually ban private vehicle ownership all together.
(Which is also why I'm so down on bikes: I don't think they scale well to "the entire population" as to many people have medical conditions or are just out of shape, and to much of Canada gets icy roads.)
They won't and probably shouldn't scale to the entire population, but they do scale a whole lot better than private cars do! Plus they scale at a level that ends sprawl, which helps people who are unable to ride a bike or drive a vehicle as well.
All modes play a role, but walking (or rolling) should come first, and driving a private vehicle last. But that is a hell of a challenge at scale!
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They won't and probably shouldn't scale to the entire population, but they do scale a whole lot better than private cars do! Plus they scale at a level that ends sprawl, which helps people who are unable to ride a bike or drive a vehicle as well.
All modes play a role, but walking (or rolling) should come first, and driving a private vehicle last. But that is a hell of a challenge at scale!
@Canageek @geonz @adub Finland has got some insights on icy roads: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20231220-why-oulu-finland-is-the-winter-cycling-capital-of-the-world
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bicycles have always struck physicists (e.g. me!) as almost miraculous. they are simultaneously:
• dynamically elegant,
• mechanically simple,
• energetically near-optimal, and
• extraordinarily cheap, as a conveyance.YES I DO LOVE BICYCLES. so should everyone, tbh.
with the added proviso that not everyone can ride a bicycle and that's OK. humanity will always need other transportation options. we just aren't anywhere close to bikemaxxing yet and we should be.
@adub Are there any configurations that can carry the advantages that escooters (and scooters) bring to a more bike-structured form that doesn't drop the benefits bikes get? (even if it takes a lower max speed than bikes)
- better ability to convert between multi-modal usage much better -- riding to walking to riding
- (related) portability/packageability, to carry onto mass transit or into a friend's car (don't know how wide of a feature this is for escooters -- it's a common reason I grab my plain-scooter over my bike) -
@marjolica @adub I tried again in my mid-thirties, just biking for kilometer between two buildings that I work at. After the third time I crashed the bike (into a thorn bush) I gave up and just have walked between them or taking the bus everyday since.
@Canageek @adub certainly no rule that biking will suit everyone. That's why we should work together on creating transport alternatives to cars that work for everyone, if not the same solution for everyone.
I'm must admit surprise that in the Netherlands and Copenhagen (been there) sit-up-and-beg bikes and in London hire bikes (Santander Bikes) work as well as they do when people don't dress to use them. Maybe the distances are less. I would pop down a mile or so to the butchers when I lived in London, but to bike to work (and now retired for leisure) I always wear cycling specific clothing, such as cycling shorts with inserts* and a helmet.
I was out biking yesterday, 31 miles in 21-30°C and with a light cycling specific top, it was pleasant and strictly not need for a shower after. I admit cycle commuting in the rain, even with good waterproof clothing, less so and I would sometimes catch the overground instead.* and a woman-specific saddle.
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bicycles have always struck physicists (e.g. me!) as almost miraculous. they are simultaneously:
• dynamically elegant,
• mechanically simple,
• energetically near-optimal, and
• extraordinarily cheap, as a conveyance.YES I DO LOVE BICYCLES. so should everyone, tbh.
with the added proviso that not everyone can ride a bicycle and that's OK. humanity will always need other transportation options. we just aren't anywhere close to bikemaxxing yet and we should be.
@adub I have a tricycle.
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@adub I'm frustrated by how much money we put into bikes. We could put that into decent transportation like a train or more buses! Things that don't involve showing up at work exhausted and sweaty and with horrible helmet hair, that don't become dangerous due to ice most of the year
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@Canageek @geonz @adub Finland has got some insights on icy roads: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20231220-why-oulu-finland-is-the-winter-cycling-capital-of-the-world
@wsslmn @geonz @adub I've read articles about that before and they haven't ever addressed the issue with I've seen: freezing and refreezing. You plow perfectly and move the snow off the path. Then it warms up over the day, melting that snow and forming a lake in the path. It them freezes overnight and you've got a very smooth ice sheet.
This is why when I was biking between the two buildings at my university I stop after the first snowfall, that would happen all fall and most of the winter
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@wsslmn @geonz @adub I mean, I also want to tax vehicles by weight (increasing at the scale of road damage, so by the square or mass^4 depending on who's numbers you believe), charge a fee for cars with only one person in them per km, and eventually ban private vehicle ownership all together.
(Which is also why I'm so down on bikes: I don't think they scale well to "the entire population" as to many people have medical conditions or are just out of shape, and to much of Canada gets icy roads.)
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@catzilla @PapyrusBrigade @adub
That's why someone invented walking bikes for seniors.
https://www.sollso.com/
