Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@firefoxwebdevs I would rather like for auxiliary features to be added via the extensions API.
@truh @firefoxwebdevs I generally agree, but I can see exceptions for things such as accessibility features (translation is accessibility), and other features that extend user facing non-ai features and are done with local small models, as long as they are off by default.
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@firefoxwebdevs alternative perspective:
Remove all AI-LLM, AI-ML related functionality.
Then have target end-user (web developer) choose, informed by their values & preferences what functional components they’d like to “plug-in” to web-browser for ML content processing for web page-
- Language translation - enable on device locally download-on-demand ML or use your own
- Dictionaries
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Once these are real-world validated & functional, they can be shared via open source commons with others.@dahukanna @firefoxwebdevs this thread is not about an LLM, or AI-ML feature.
Translations are an accessibility feature, essential for many around the world, this should be a native feature, unless you don' t care about accessibility.
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@firefoxwebdevs rather than mess about with kill switches for a product most people don't want, strip all that AI crap out of the browser and make extensions that integrate with various LLM models so those who do want it can add it but don't force this slop on everyone by default
I've been a FF user since the beta days and have now switched to Librewolf because of the AI and ad tech bloat in FF
It makes me sad to see FF decline in this way & become another AI bloated browser
@viralobscurity @firefoxwebdevs this feature doesn't use an LLM... and it's about accessibility, accessibility shouldn't be an optional feature.
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante
If they absolutely must board the slop train, do it as an extension. That would, of course, defeat their real goal of sucking up all our information and further inflate the bullshit bubble. -
@vik
your sentence makes no sense: both as a plugin or integrated in a browser, folks are needed to implement it. The fact it would be an extension doesn't change that.Also it's not exclusive. There are people working on the translation engine. There are people working on improving the platform. There are people working on the Firefox frontend.
@julienw
I'm sorry you don't get it, but don't worry, we do.
@funkylab @m0rpk @firefoxwebdevs -
Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs put every A.I. things on plugins … so no need for kill switch anymore
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante
I don't care as long as it doesn't interfere with proper browsing.
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@mdavis I believe it's a moral stance due to how the models were produced.
It is very much a trust issue. The track record of AI training is not good. To taint Firefox with the same trust issues is dangerous. The people mainly using Firefox does it because of the failing trust in other platforms. This trust when lost takes a very long time to earn again.
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@jaffathecake @RAOF @mage_of_dragons @cassidy @firefoxwebdevs you can’t just take data from a bad poll and call it evidence
@cobweb what details about the poll do you feel are incorrect, and how do you feel the incorrectness impacted the result?
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@CyberPunker @firefoxwebdevs kill switch doesn't mean opt-out, it means have a single button to disable it.
The thing is that an user might have switched on a couple of AI features, and might have changed its mind, and wanted to disable it all permanently or temporarily, and having a single button to do that is very useful.
@DiogoConstantino @firefoxwebdevs A "live switch" would do the same but has to be activated before to enable the slop.
Seeing that FF activated the slop without having the option to deactivate it (beside in about:config) lets me think the "kill switch" would/will mean opt-out. -
@julienw
I'm sorry you don't get it, but don't worry, we do.
@funkylab @m0rpk @firefoxwebdevs@vik no, you're just grandstanding. Don't be an arse on the internet.
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@angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard as in, you don't think there should be an option to re-enable it, or that it should be enabled by default?
@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard
Missing option, if shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place. It should be an add-on that the user has to explicitly install.
A suspect lot of people voted for the, "but allow it to re-enabled," option due to it being the least shitty choice presented. Not because that is the behavior they actually desire.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs which option is "LLM ('AI') features should not be in Firefox"? The others are just affirming the consequent - I don't want an "AI kill switch" to turn off translation, because I don't want it to exist because there's no "AI" for it to "kill".
I don't care how useful some people find LLMs for some tasks. It is irrelevant; there is no ethical use of LLMs, based on the individual and cumulative impact of literally every single step in their creation and operation. That shit can go fuck all the way off, and then it can fuck off some more. There is no "but, for this user case...", because there is not and cannot be an ethical, acceptable calculus to even *compare* the negatives to whichever economic metrics or feels one might wave about. The discussion is bullshit, the costs are *intrinsically* unacceptable, full stop.
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@vik no, you're just grandstanding. Don't be an arse on the internet.
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@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante
4th option: i was a Firefox user until they fed it up with AI@efialto @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante
Ditto.
I used Firefox until they announced the addition of AI into future versions, then I stopped updating it. On my Linux systems I switched to Librewolf and now consider completely uninstalling my older version of Firefox.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs where is the option for it to be an extension that i can just not install at all because i dont care for such a non-essential feature -
@zzt I posted this poll after a meeting where we discussed the design of the kill switch, and there was uncertainty around translations. I want to make sure the community's voice is represented in these discussions.
The community has pretty vociferously stated "preferably leave AI to add-ons instead of building it in, and DEFINITELY no AI by default"
If the add-on system can't handle all the AI needs, maybe focus on fixing the add-on system so it can; rather than ramming undesired AI into an already-RAM-and-CPU-gobbling application.
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@vik no, you're just grandstanding. Don't be an arse on the internet.
@funkylab Well, you'll get that when someone says "here are the reasons" and you go "they're not reasons". Probably little point in having any other discourse with you at this point. @julienw @m0rpk @firefoxwebdevs
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs oh, fuck off. You know perfectly well what we mean when we say get the “AI” out of the damn browser. This triangulation isn’t doing what you think it’s doing.
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@firefoxwebdevs oh, fuck off. You know perfectly well what we mean when we say get the “AI” out of the damn browser. This triangulation isn’t doing what you think it’s doing.
@rowmyboat assuming a kill switch is landing (which it is), do you disagree with the results of the poll?
