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  3. I've never been opposed to the word "hallucinating" for describing how AI makes mistakes ... until now.

I've never been opposed to the word "hallucinating" for describing how AI makes mistakes ... until now.

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  • drangnon@hachyderm.ioD drangnon@hachyderm.io

    @grammargirl like when medical people call someone "confused", AI "hallucination" is a more precise term than common parlance. it basically means the bot couldn't find a plausible answer and is for some reason blocked from saying "I don't know", so it makes stuff up.

    that's a bit different from "confidently makes mistakes" becuase it's "confidently making stuff up entirely".

    I have no idea what would be a good replacement for "hallucinate" in this context, I agree that it feels deceptive as is though.

    benaveling@infosec.exchangeB This user is from outside of this forum
    benaveling@infosec.exchangeB This user is from outside of this forum
    benaveling@infosec.exchange
    wrote sidst redigeret af
    #41

    I'm iffy on the term. But I don't have anything better.
    But this: GenAI doesn't sometimes hallucinate. It always hallucinates. It only ever hallucinates.
    Sometimes, what it hallucinates is plausible.
    @draNgNon @grammargirl

    buermann@mastodon.socialB 1 Reply Last reply
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    • grammargirl@zirk.usG grammargirl@zirk.us

      The word "hallucination" isn't going away — it's a widely used industry term — but we need to explain it better for beginners:

      "Hallucination" is just a fancy word for "confidently makes mistakes":

      "Remember: AI hallucinates, and you need to confirm all facts" should be something like "Remember: AI confidently makes mistakes, and you need to confirm all facts" or "AI tells you things that are wrong in a way that sounds completely believable. Confirm all facts!"

      obbiez@urbanists.socialO This user is from outside of this forum
      obbiez@urbanists.socialO This user is from outside of this forum
      obbiez@urbanists.social
      wrote sidst redigeret af
      #42

      @grammargirl "AI tells you things that are wrong in a way that sounds completely believable."

      Ah, so AI is like Wally Cox on Hollywood Squares! (Use this analogy on old people. We'll understand.)

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      • grammargirl@zirk.usG grammargirl@zirk.us

        I've never been opposed to the word "hallucinating" for describing how AI makes mistakes ... until now.

        I just talked to someone who thought AI hallucinations would be obvious because it would be obvious if you talked to a *person* who was hallucinating.

        In other words, they equated "hallucination" with "sounds wacko" and accepted AI output as true because it sounded level headed.

        1/2

        benjaminklein@mastodon.nuB This user is from outside of this forum
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        benjaminklein@mastodon.nu
        wrote sidst redigeret af
        #43

        @grammargirl this is a good reason. I appose it for an additional reason: it's anthropomorphising, as does most language related to LLMs, including the term AI itself.

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        • grammargirl@zirk.usG grammargirl@zirk.us

          I've never been opposed to the word "hallucinating" for describing how AI makes mistakes ... until now.

          I just talked to someone who thought AI hallucinations would be obvious because it would be obvious if you talked to a *person* who was hallucinating.

          In other words, they equated "hallucination" with "sounds wacko" and accepted AI output as true because it sounded level headed.

          1/2

          fencepost@infosec.exchangeF This user is from outside of this forum
          fencepost@infosec.exchangeF This user is from outside of this forum
          fencepost@infosec.exchange
          wrote sidst redigeret af
          #44

          @grammargirl You might get traction by describing it as "truthy" (and explaining that), or by noting that you'll get basically the same results by asking "What would a response to the question '(original question)' sound like?"

          Note that "what it would sound like" is very much not the same as "what is the answer" - but what you get will sure *sound like* an answer.

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          • queenofnewyork@newsie.socialQ queenofnewyork@newsie.social

            @grammargirl Hm. It’s not always obvious if a person you are talking to is hallucinating, depending on what their hallucinations are and what they say.

            I get their point, just am sad on the mental illness rep side.

            crypticrainfall@app.wafrn.netC This user is from outside of this forum
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            crypticrainfall@app.wafrn.net
            wrote sidst redigeret af
            #45

            @grammargirl@zirk.us @queenofnewyork@newsie.social

            I was thinking this too, if someone thinks they can tell if a person is hallucinating because it's "obvious", then they have a major misunderstanding of how hallucinations work at all.

            I get where the concern is for AI hallucinations as a term, but then the same concern is there for hallucinations a human person has too.

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            • grammargirl@zirk.usG grammargirl@zirk.us

              I've never been opposed to the word "hallucinating" for describing how AI makes mistakes ... until now.

              I just talked to someone who thought AI hallucinations would be obvious because it would be obvious if you talked to a *person* who was hallucinating.

              In other words, they equated "hallucination" with "sounds wacko" and accepted AI output as true because it sounded level headed.

              1/2

              joriki@infosec.exchangeJ This user is from outside of this forum
              joriki@infosec.exchangeJ This user is from outside of this forum
              joriki@infosec.exchange
              wrote sidst redigeret af
              #46

              @grammargirl

              all the outputs of LLMs and the like are hallucinations, it's just that the "bell curve" of the outputs overlap the appearance of most of what the user wants

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              • grammargirl@zirk.usG grammargirl@zirk.us

                I've never been opposed to the word "hallucinating" for describing how AI makes mistakes ... until now.

                I just talked to someone who thought AI hallucinations would be obvious because it would be obvious if you talked to a *person* who was hallucinating.

                In other words, they equated "hallucination" with "sounds wacko" and accepted AI output as true because it sounded level headed.

                1/2

                buermann@mastodon.socialB This user is from outside of this forum
                buermann@mastodon.socialB This user is from outside of this forum
                buermann@mastodon.social
                wrote sidst redigeret af
                #47

                @grammargirl

                They are AI mirages: they look like what you asked for but the closer you look the less there is.

                Only users can hallucinate.

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                • grammargirl@zirk.usG grammargirl@zirk.us

                  I've never been opposed to the word "hallucinating" for describing how AI makes mistakes ... until now.

                  I just talked to someone who thought AI hallucinations would be obvious because it would be obvious if you talked to a *person* who was hallucinating.

                  In other words, they equated "hallucination" with "sounds wacko" and accepted AI output as true because it sounded level headed.

                  1/2

                  jesser29@social.vivaldi.netJ This user is from outside of this forum
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                  jesser29@social.vivaldi.net
                  wrote sidst redigeret af
                  #48

                  @grammargirl i had a discussion with someone who thought the screen would go fuzzy or similar when AI was hallucinating. So they thought it would be obvious

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                  • benaveling@infosec.exchangeB benaveling@infosec.exchange

                    I'm iffy on the term. But I don't have anything better.
                    But this: GenAI doesn't sometimes hallucinate. It always hallucinates. It only ever hallucinates.
                    Sometimes, what it hallucinates is plausible.
                    @draNgNon @grammargirl

                    buermann@mastodon.socialB This user is from outside of this forum
                    buermann@mastodon.socialB This user is from outside of this forum
                    buermann@mastodon.social
                    wrote sidst redigeret af
                    #49

                    @BenAveling @draNgNon @grammargirl

                    The AI is generating language from some matrix algebra that regurgitates transforms of the test data or mirages of it. Only users can hallucinate and believe the mirages are real while a whirring vortex of vectors can't believe in anything.

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                    • grammargirl@zirk.usG grammargirl@zirk.us

                      The word "hallucination" isn't going away — it's a widely used industry term — but we need to explain it better for beginners:

                      "Hallucination" is just a fancy word for "confidently makes mistakes":

                      "Remember: AI hallucinates, and you need to confirm all facts" should be something like "Remember: AI confidently makes mistakes, and you need to confirm all facts" or "AI tells you things that are wrong in a way that sounds completely believable. Confirm all facts!"

                      downes@mastodon.socialD This user is from outside of this forum
                      downes@mastodon.socialD This user is from outside of this forum
                      downes@mastodon.social
                      wrote sidst redigeret af
                      #50

                      @grammargirl I think it's funny that people who object to the use of 'halluctinate' because it anthropomorphises AI are nonetheless happy with their use of the word 'confident', as in 'confidently makes mistakes', in the same context.

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                      • orionkidder@writing.exchangeO orionkidder@writing.exchange

                        @grammargirl This is a good example of why that term is so dangerous. Thank you for posting it.

                        That said, while I have zero hope of making that term go away, we also have the word "slop" as a counter.

                        "Ugh. It had a hallucination..."

                        "Yup. And the results are now slop."

                        That said, I don't myself use "hallucination" in the "AI" context. I refer to the error rate, which last I checked, hovered around 40%.

                        danielmunoz@maly.ioD This user is from outside of this forum
                        danielmunoz@maly.ioD This user is from outside of this forum
                        danielmunoz@maly.io
                        wrote sidst redigeret af
                        #51

                        @orionkidder @grammargirl I’ve heard the Spanish science communicator Ignacio Crespo argue that “hallucination” is misleading in this context, because it imports a human mental-state metaphor into a statistical text-generation error. “Confabulation” may be closer: a plausible-sounding reconstruction that fills gaps. Still, it also comes from human cognition, so it can anthropomorphise the model too.

                        danielmunoz@maly.ioD 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • danielmunoz@maly.ioD danielmunoz@maly.io

                          @orionkidder @grammargirl I’ve heard the Spanish science communicator Ignacio Crespo argue that “hallucination” is misleading in this context, because it imports a human mental-state metaphor into a statistical text-generation error. “Confabulation” may be closer: a plausible-sounding reconstruction that fills gaps. Still, it also comes from human cognition, so it can anthropomorphise the model too.

                          danielmunoz@maly.ioD This user is from outside of this forum
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                          danielmunoz@maly.io
                          wrote sidst redigeret af
                          #52

                          @orionkidder @grammargirl I think the deeper problem with “hallucination” is that it imports a human mental-state metaphor into a statistical text-generation error. That can make people expect obviously bizarre output, when the real danger is often confident, plausible-sounding falsehoods. “Confabulation” has a similar problem, though. But, I don’t know, it sounds better to me.

                          orionkidder@writing.exchangeO 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • rndanger@infosec.exchangeR rndanger@infosec.exchange

                            @AccordionBruce @orionkidder @grammargirl
                            Exactly this.
                            Hallucination is an act of cognition. The machine doesn't

                            gotofritz@hachyderm.ioG This user is from outside of this forum
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                            wrote sidst redigeret af
                            #53

                            @RnDanger @AccordionBruce @orionkidder @grammargirl

                            It seems such a pointless, minor nuance that will make no difference whatsoever in practice 😅

                            (yes I am aware talking about this kind of minor nuances is your day job, but still, someone's gotta say it)

                            elfburgerman@mastodon.socialE 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • grammargirl@zirk.usG grammargirl@zirk.us

                              I've never been opposed to the word "hallucinating" for describing how AI makes mistakes ... until now.

                              I just talked to someone who thought AI hallucinations would be obvious because it would be obvious if you talked to a *person* who was hallucinating.

                              In other words, they equated "hallucination" with "sounds wacko" and accepted AI output as true because it sounded level headed.

                              1/2

                              felichsdakatze@mastodon.socialF This user is from outside of this forum
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                              felichsdakatze@mastodon.social
                              wrote sidst redigeret af
                              #54

                              @grammargirl
                              Some of the kookiest genuinely bat nuts crazy people Ive ever met, spoke exceptionally well, and logically connected ideas together. They could make exceptionally convincing arguments that were nonetheless wrong.

                              "Spoke eloquently" is a lower bar than some assume.

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                              • grammargirl@zirk.usG grammargirl@zirk.us

                                The word "hallucination" isn't going away — it's a widely used industry term — but we need to explain it better for beginners:

                                "Hallucination" is just a fancy word for "confidently makes mistakes":

                                "Remember: AI hallucinates, and you need to confirm all facts" should be something like "Remember: AI confidently makes mistakes, and you need to confirm all facts" or "AI tells you things that are wrong in a way that sounds completely believable. Confirm all facts!"

                                elfburgerman@mastodon.socialE This user is from outside of this forum
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                                elfburgerman@mastodon.social
                                wrote sidst redigeret af
                                #55

                                @grammargirl
                                I'm opposed to your use of 'AI'. An LLM is not an intelligence, even though that is what people call it.
                                Every word the industry likes for its own products probably helps to mislead the public.
                                Every form of anthropomorphisation of LLMs should be banned.

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                                • gotofritz@hachyderm.ioG gotofritz@hachyderm.io

                                  @RnDanger @AccordionBruce @orionkidder @grammargirl

                                  It seems such a pointless, minor nuance that will make no difference whatsoever in practice 😅

                                  (yes I am aware talking about this kind of minor nuances is your day job, but still, someone's gotta say it)

                                  elfburgerman@mastodon.socialE This user is from outside of this forum
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                                  elfburgerman@mastodon.social
                                  wrote sidst redigeret af
                                  #56

                                  @gotofritz @RnDanger @AccordionBruce @orionkidder @grammargirl
                                  Language can be used as one of the most dangerous tools we have because it shapes the way we think (and thus our future) mostly on a subconscious level. The more subtly a word misleads, the more difference it can make in practice.

                                  orionkidder@writing.exchangeO rndanger@infosec.exchangeR 2 Replies Last reply
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                                  • grammargirl@zirk.usG grammargirl@zirk.us

                                    I've never been opposed to the word "hallucinating" for describing how AI makes mistakes ... until now.

                                    I just talked to someone who thought AI hallucinations would be obvious because it would be obvious if you talked to a *person* who was hallucinating.

                                    In other words, they equated "hallucination" with "sounds wacko" and accepted AI output as true because it sounded level headed.

                                    1/2

                                    shamhatt@mastodon.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
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                                    shamhatt@mastodon.social
                                    wrote sidst redigeret af
                                    #57

                                    @grammargirl This is a great Wittgenstein conundrum but to be honest I would leave it as is, the scientific community will find its own terms in publications; we are otherwise living dangerous times and the last thing we want is to split hairs and divert people from the very issue at hand. Personally I am decanting for a good Côtes Du Rone for my hallucinations, and of course some squirt of AI.

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                                    • danielmunoz@maly.ioD danielmunoz@maly.io

                                      @orionkidder @grammargirl I think the deeper problem with “hallucination” is that it imports a human mental-state metaphor into a statistical text-generation error. That can make people expect obviously bizarre output, when the real danger is often confident, plausible-sounding falsehoods. “Confabulation” has a similar problem, though. But, I don’t know, it sounds better to me.

                                      orionkidder@writing.exchangeO This user is from outside of this forum
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                                      orionkidder@writing.exchange
                                      wrote sidst redigeret af
                                      #58

                                      @danielmunoz @grammargirl This is why I refer to its "error rate." It's a machine that produces false answers to such a large degree that it shouldn't be trusted. It's simply faulty.

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                                      • elfburgerman@mastodon.socialE elfburgerman@mastodon.social

                                        @gotofritz @RnDanger @AccordionBruce @orionkidder @grammargirl
                                        Language can be used as one of the most dangerous tools we have because it shapes the way we think (and thus our future) mostly on a subconscious level. The more subtly a word misleads, the more difference it can make in practice.

                                        orionkidder@writing.exchangeO This user is from outside of this forum
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                                        orionkidder@writing.exchange
                                        wrote sidst redigeret af
                                        #59

                                        @elfburgerman @gotofritz @RnDanger @AccordionBruce @grammargirl I think this is true. Like I said above, I have zero expectation that my language use is going to make a damn bit of difference at scale, but in individual conversations, refusing the metaphor of consciousness can help reframe.

                                        It's just an error. The machine is faulty. It makes errors a lot.

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                                        • elfburgerman@mastodon.socialE elfburgerman@mastodon.social

                                          @gotofritz @RnDanger @AccordionBruce @orionkidder @grammargirl
                                          Language can be used as one of the most dangerous tools we have because it shapes the way we think (and thus our future) mostly on a subconscious level. The more subtly a word misleads, the more difference it can make in practice.

                                          rndanger@infosec.exchangeR This user is from outside of this forum
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                                          rndanger@infosec.exchange
                                          wrote sidst redigeret af
                                          #60

                                          @elfburgerman @gotofritz @AccordionBruce @orionkidder @grammargirl
                                          I agree.
                                          "Hallucination" is a great marketing term to make people want to trust a machine, but it's a pretty poor choice of words to convey any understanding of what the machine does or how it does it

                                          orionkidder@writing.exchangeO 1 Reply Last reply
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