Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
Make it entirely opt-in, not built-in an default-enabled.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs That's a bloody stupid question, and a disingenuous one, as ML is merely a form of AI that's unsuited to translation.
It should be a Y/N choice on "Do you want climate-destroying AI in Firefox, despite it already being a resource-hungry app?"
Then you can apply Betteridge's law. Occam already voted.
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The Firefox AI "kill switch" is not "complicated" except insofar as it's incoherent. it's not "undisclosed nuance" except insofar as it's incoherent.
the "kill switch" doesn't exist.
this is important to keep in mind. once you remember that NONE OF THIS EXISTS, you will realise that every one of the dilemmas you posit is an imaginary problem that follows from incoherent postulates.
e.g. "AI kill switch purists" is not a coherent postulation because the "kill switch" does not exist.
the "kill switch" is a hypothetical proposed in this post:
https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115740500373677782
the "kill switch" is a proposal to satisfy the demand for an opt-in by providing an opt-out. you might think that's a failure to respect the question, and you might even begin to suspect the proposal was in bad faith.
note that Jake, in presenting the kill switch and calling it a kill switch and getting it into all the papers as a kill switch, says he's uncomfortable with the name he's publicised it as. you might think that's oddly incompetent for literally a PR (devrel) person.
the concept as presented imposes multiple false dilemmas.
the LLM stuff should *incredibly obviously* be an extension. this is the purest possible opt-in, despite jake's past attempts to muddy the meaning of "opt-in".
making it an extension is also eminently feasible. There is literally no technical reason it needs to be a browser built-in.
this suggests the reasons are not in any way technical. some person with a name, who has yet to be named, dictated that it would be a built-in. so that's what Mozilla is going with.
why Mozilla went hard AI is entirely unclear. this would have been late 2024? we have no idea who was inspired with this bad idea nor why they were so incredibly keen to force it into the browser.
nor is it clear what Mozilla will do for external LLM services when the AI bubble runs out of venture capital and pops in a year or so, most of the chatbot APIs shut down and whatever remains is 10x the cost at least. but that's a problem for 2027's bonus, not 2026's.
note how the poll provides no option for "no LLM functions built-in to Firefox", in a pathetically transparent attempt to synthesize consent. jake wants to use this poll as evidence of what the user base wants, deliberately leaving out the option he knows directly a lot of them want.
and in conclusion:
1. solve the "kill switch" naming problem by branding it the "brutal and bloody robot murder switch with an option on the executives responsible".
2. make all this shit an extension like they should have a year ago.
3. and your little translator too.@davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs I appreciate the time and effort you put into this thoughtful response, emphasizing points that are an important part of the discussion.
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@firefoxwebdevs @joepie91 i'm a "tech folk". Just give us a version of firefox with zero AI. Translation can either be an extension or not there. We ask of you to supply a base for broSing the web, the rest is what the community delivers.
We won't ask you to integrate ad blockers, but we have them.
We won't ask you to integrate quick procy switchers, but we have them.Stop the feature creep and go back to the roots, make a very good browser with extension support and let people make the rest.
@Fooker @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91 with extensions written in Scheme
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@firefoxwebdevs then I think it comes down to- is translation specifically considered "AI" by your own definition (not personally your definition, how it is treated internally by Mozilla)?
If it is treated and handled as "AI" then yes, following the idea of including what is defined by Mozilla as "AI" into the "AI kill switch" it should be disabled when the "kill switch" is toggled.
@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91 I’m kindof amazed that Mozilla can’t distinguish which changes led to the backlash. I think that’s why this whole thing feels more like putting on a show than like a genuine attempt at reform.
The timing alone makes it clear that the builtin translation was not the issue. Sure, moving it to a plugin would be an improvement, and requiring user action to enable it would be smaller improvement, but that was the case before.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs If you weren't cramming the frothy mixture of auto complete and copyright infringement you call "AI" into everything you make despite no-one who uses it wanting it, you wouldn't have to ask this question.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs doing a great job at regaining users' trust there, I see
In other news, you've done such a great job at regaining my trust that I've switched browsers to anything but Firefox. Well done, Mozilla.
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@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91 I’m kindof amazed that Mozilla can’t distinguish which changes led to the backlash. I think that’s why this whole thing feels more like putting on a show than like a genuine attempt at reform.
The timing alone makes it clear that the builtin translation was not the issue. Sure, moving it to a plugin would be an improvement, and requiring user action to enable it would be smaller improvement, but that was the case before.
️@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ The main issue is Mozilla as an organization embracing the lie that LLMs possess something resembling human intelligence, welcoming the full variety of harms caused by their implementation and use, integrating their use into unnecessary “features”, and enabling those “features” both by default and reverting them to enabled after updates.️ -
@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ The main issue is Mozilla as an organization embracing the lie that LLMs possess something resembling human intelligence, welcoming the full variety of harms caused by their implementation and use, integrating their use into unnecessary “features”, and enabling those “features” both by default and reverting them to enabled after updates.️@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ After y’all lied to us, encouraged harm to us, set us up to add to that harm, and reverted us to that setup after we opted out, we don’t trust you anymore.It’s alright to address lesser issues like the builtin translation, but that doesn’t address the main issue or rebuild any trust.
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@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ After y’all lied to us, encouraged harm to us, set us up to add to that harm, and reverted us to that setup after we opted out, we don’t trust you anymore.It’s alright to address lesser issues like the builtin translation, but that doesn’t address the main issue or rebuild any trust.
️@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ The best thing you could do in Firefox is to completely remove the “AI” “features” that are built on the lie and contributing to the harm. The next best would be to move them to plugins that are not installed by default. The next best is the “kill switch”, but with “killed” as the default, and ideally, as you say, not a single switch but a set of them.️ -
@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ The best thing you could do in Firefox is to completely remove the “AI” “features” that are built on the lie and contributing to the harm. The next best would be to move them to plugins that are not installed by default. The next best is the “kill switch”, but with “killed” as the default, and ideally, as you say, not a single switch but a set of them.️@chillicampari @firefoxwebdevs @joepie91
️ But that alone won’t be enough to rebuild trust; I’d like to suggest something that would help with that, but unfortunately that’s far outside my wheelhouse
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@firefoxwebdevs I also like the idea of having all such features as extensions rather than built in features, so they can be explicitly turned on by people who want to.
Would really make the product clearly stand out from others
@hdv
"Make it a setting" sounds nice but no one considers the cost to users from having too many settings in UIs.What a like about Firefox is people who really want to change all kinds of default behavior can do so through about:config and other means of altering those prefs.
The translation feature has been there for a while, is good for all the reasons you listed, and is fundamentally different from the LLMs, which are what people mean by "AI" today. Its pop-up panel already has a setting to stop it popping up any more and if someone doesn't even want to see the address bar icon, I'm sure there's something in about:config for that.
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@davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs I fixed it.
Do you want AI slop in Firefox?
@theorangetheme @davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs If Firefox isn't willing to cut out AI (fuck levers and knobs), then stop calling it Firefox.
Let the legacy of user trust and privacy end and stop lying to people. Mozilla is a company, the browser is a product, and you (Moz Org and Foundation) have no interest in consumer rights.
Mozilla's battlecry should be "Shut up, download the free browser, and let us watch everything you do." Because we're not your customers anymore. Stockholders and advertisers are.
Your next poll: How can (browser not Firefox) bring you ads and save you money when shopping?" That is what you want to ask, so do it.
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@firefoxwebdevs what about an "AI enable" switch that is off by default
that would be cool
@DrJosh9000 if they made it an easter egg loot box thing there are people who'd probably be racing to be the first to turn it on @firefoxwebdevs
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@theorangetheme @davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs If Firefox isn't willing to cut out AI (fuck levers and knobs), then stop calling it Firefox.
Let the legacy of user trust and privacy end and stop lying to people. Mozilla is a company, the browser is a product, and you (Moz Org and Foundation) have no interest in consumer rights.
Mozilla's battlecry should be "Shut up, download the free browser, and let us watch everything you do." Because we're not your customers anymore. Stockholders and advertisers are.
Your next poll: How can (browser not Firefox) bring you ads and save you money when shopping?" That is what you want to ask, so do it.
@Tock @theorangetheme @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs
countdown to:
1. more AI in Firefox
2. Mozilla drops Gecko in favour of Chromium
3. with all possibility of ad blocking disabled
4. certainty the massive international user base of people *just like them* will show up any day now! just you wait!! -
Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs
It's probably a good idea in general to let the AI killswitch disable all AI stuff (incl. future one) by default, but still allow the user to selectively re-enable features like translations (without having to use about:config) -
@Tock @theorangetheme @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs
countdown to:
1. more AI in Firefox
2. Mozilla drops Gecko in favour of Chromium
3. with all possibility of ad blocking disabled
4. certainty the massive international user base of people *just like them* will show up any day now! just you wait!!@davidgerard @theorangetheme @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social Such a waste, too. Years of standards fighting, differentiation with Gecko, then Quantum (see? I WAS a follower all along!) and being a model of what Open Source stewardship could mean for the larger Internet.
RIP Mozilla, if you thought you were floundering as a Not for Profit Corp, you're worse than useless as a Marketing Agency.
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@davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs I fixed it.
Do you want AI slop in Firefox?
@theorangetheme @davidgerard @theogrin @mdavis @firefoxwebdevs the whole c-level of mozilla looks sketchy af
thinking of it, firing every cis man and building up again from there wouldnt probably the worst move
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Fireslop.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs I really love the local on-device translation, "AI" or not.
I think this question follows a fundamental misunderstanding of the AI toggle. I want I do not want to ship off my browser data to any AI company (including Mozzila), and that would be the toggle I would look for.
If Firefox/Mozilla came out with a on-device local-only LLM I would personally be more receptive. The main issue for a browser is that it should be a browser, and also not ship all my data off for harvesting by AI slop companies.
