On first glance (pre-caffeine) it looks like there are a bunch of mansplainers doing math to defend Reflect Orbital in my mentions.
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@knud @Legit_Spaghetti I know when AST SpaceMobile lost one of their awful giant satellites from a launch failure a few weeks ago, they said insurance would pay for it, so whatever. So these companies definitely have SOME kind of insurance.
@sundogplanets @Legit_Spaghetti
But only for the value of the sat, to rebuild it or also for damages of ... <gestures at everything>?
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On a more serious note, does anyone know how to find out who is insuring Reflect Orbital? Seems like they might want to know the company they're insuring admitted in an official FCC document that they could cause permanent eye damage to people who look at their satellite through a telescope...
@sundogplanets I have a contact who can almost certainly find out. Whether they are able to disclose is a different question, will let you know in a day or so.
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@knud @Legit_Spaghetti the US gov't is only liable for damages that happen on the ground due to reentries in other countries (according to the Space Liability Convention). Does eye damage count for that? Veeerrrryyyy interesting question...
@sundogplanets @Legit_Spaghetti
Uncharted territory.
Similarly unclear whether it's a crime to take my 500kW laser to fry Reflect Orbital sat's communication antenna...
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@sundogplanets @Legit_Spaghetti
Uncharted territory.
Similarly unclear whether it's a crime to take my 500kW laser to fry Reflect Orbital sat's communication antenna...
@knud @sundogplanets @Legit_Spaghetti It should be at least reciprocal. If they can shine light at me destroying my telescope, I can shine light at them destroying their satellite.
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On first glance (pre-caffeine) it looks like there are a bunch of mansplainers doing math to defend Reflect Orbital in my mentions. FANTASTIC.
(Editing to add that reading more carefully, I think most of it is actually well-intentioned discussion trying to understand how the hell RO thinks they have any kind of business case. But I am extra grumpy because it's hot. No blocking needed.)
Good morning to everyone except the people defending or funding Reflect Orbital.
@sundogplanets I am wondering: is space sabotage already a thing? If not, these reflectors really ask for it.
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On a more serious note, does anyone know how to find out who is insuring Reflect Orbital? Seems like they might want to know the company they're insuring admitted in an official FCC document that they could cause permanent eye damage to people who look at their satellite through a telescope...
@sundogplanets
the answer comes to mind as, no. There is not likely to be a simple answer to the question of who insures. If the business is entirely owned and operated and conducted within one area then one insurance company might insure it, or one insurance might insure some of it and might farm out insurance coverage to commercial insurers for catastrophic loss coverage, or not. Expand the question to a business which is conducted outside of a single region of insurance coverage and then you can add optional headache of corporate legal team looking for liability loopholes in wording of insurance policy coverage, wording of international exemptions and laws, wording of space treaties, and any past precedent of proving strict liability and shared liability. Oh, and from what I was told many decades ago, the name of an insured is treated by the insurance company just like a trade secret. You can ask, maybe they would brag, but it's not a simple answer and there are places where it is legal to be self-insured and there is the possibility that some shady business would consider bankruptcy cheaper than insurance and stupidly think the corporate veil would save corporate officers from severally and collectively being liable. -
@knud @sundogplanets @Legit_Spaghetti It should be at least reciprocal. If they can shine light at me destroying my telescope, I can shine light at them destroying their satellite.
@hannorein @sundogplanets @Legit_Spaghetti
Sounds fair!
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@sundogplanets I have a contact who can almost certainly find out. Whether they are able to disclose is a different question, will let you know in a day or so.
@http_error_418 Thank you for trying!
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On first glance (pre-caffeine) it looks like there are a bunch of mansplainers doing math to defend Reflect Orbital in my mentions. FANTASTIC.
(Editing to add that reading more carefully, I think most of it is actually well-intentioned discussion trying to understand how the hell RO thinks they have any kind of business case. But I am extra grumpy because it's hot. No blocking needed.)
Good morning to everyone except the people defending or funding Reflect Orbital.
@sundogplanets I genuinely don't understand how anyone can think Reflect Orbital is a good idea. Ignoring the impacts to astronomy, and the orbital mechanics and space traffic (you definitely know more about those than me anyway), the fundamental problem with global warming is that earth is retaining too much energy. How is adding more energy to that situation a good idea?
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On a more serious note, does anyone know how to find out who is insuring Reflect Orbital? Seems like they might want to know the company they're insuring admitted in an official FCC document that they could cause permanent eye damage to people who look at their satellite through a telescope...
@sundogplanets Try Aon as the broker and Munich Re as the reinsurance company. Nothing announced, but there are only so many companies in the space insurance business, and Munich Re specializes in complex/new payloads. Other major providers:
AXA XL
Swiss Re
Lloyd's of LondonSecondary providers:
AIG
Allianz
Chubb
USAIG
Hiscox
Hannover ReOther brokers (like Aon):
Willis Towers Watson
Marsh
Guy CarpenterThere are more, if not one of those
https://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/6167144/space-insurance-market-report#product--adaptive -
On a more serious note, does anyone know how to find out who is insuring Reflect Orbital? Seems like they might want to know the company they're insuring admitted in an official FCC document that they could cause permanent eye damage to people who look at their satellite through a telescope...
My wife was doing reinsurance for aviation and space (satellite launches) However, she is retired. You might inquire major reinsurance companies. If needed, I might get some pointers from her.
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On a more serious note, does anyone know how to find out who is insuring Reflect Orbital? Seems like they might want to know the company they're insuring admitted in an official FCC document that they could cause permanent eye damage to people who look at their satellite through a telescope...
@sundogplanets
It is usually a governance requirement that corporations must display the name of their corporate insurer. At Bricks and mortar admin facilities. In most countries. Certificate on Display. Direct question aimed at the Administrators should get an honest answer within a statutory period of time. -
@knud @Legit_Spaghetti I know when AST SpaceMobile lost one of their awful giant satellites from a launch failure a few weeks ago, they said insurance would pay for it, so whatever. So these companies definitely have SOME kind of insurance.
@sundogplanets @knud @Legit_Spaghetti
afaik from my wife, usually only launch failures are insured ("hull"), not liability of operating a satellite.
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@sundogplanets Try Aon as the broker and Munich Re as the reinsurance company. Nothing announced, but there are only so many companies in the space insurance business, and Munich Re specializes in complex/new payloads. Other major providers:
AXA XL
Swiss Re
Lloyd's of LondonSecondary providers:
AIG
Allianz
Chubb
USAIG
Hiscox
Hannover ReOther brokers (like Aon):
Willis Towers Watson
Marsh
Guy CarpenterThere are more, if not one of those
https://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/6167144/space-insurance-market-report#product--adaptive@sundogplanets It's quite possible (likely?) that a broker will spread out the coverage across multiple underwriters. Example:
LLoyd's for pre-launch
AXA XL for launch
Munich Re for in-orbit
Reflect Orbital would need coverage for all 3. Any one part could be prohibitively expensive enough to delay or prohibit launch. -
People can be - and have been - held liable for accidentally dazzling airplane pilots with laser pointers.
So there is at least some relevant precedent if Reflect Orbital should actually launch the things and randomly cause eye damage.
@michael_w_busch @sundogplanets
The central challenge here is that space might be different in statutes and treaty. My (possibly mistaken) impression is that companies aren't liable for damages from space debris under international treaties. But I don't know how that would impact liability for non-debris-related damage from space-based equipment malfunctions. Maybe the company is liable, or maybe you have to fight the United States Government, or maybe this stupid company can just blind people from space and there's nothing you can do about it. I just don't know.
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On first glance (pre-caffeine) it looks like there are a bunch of mansplainers doing math to defend Reflect Orbital in my mentions. FANTASTIC.
(Editing to add that reading more carefully, I think most of it is actually well-intentioned discussion trying to understand how the hell RO thinks they have any kind of business case. But I am extra grumpy because it's hot. No blocking needed.)
Good morning to everyone except the people defending or funding Reflect Orbital.
I wonder whether the insurance question comes down to insurance for Reflect Orbital's customers, rather than RO itself.
If you are harmed by RO operations motivated by a customer (Momoney Nobrains, MNB), would MNB not have liability for visiting this well-recognized hazard upon you? Could you (all zillion of you) sue MNB in your own countries, states, etc.?
In the current wild-West legal environment , might this have enough weight to deter potential customers?
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On first glance (pre-caffeine) it looks like there are a bunch of mansplainers doing math to defend Reflect Orbital in my mentions. FANTASTIC.
(Editing to add that reading more carefully, I think most of it is actually well-intentioned discussion trying to understand how the hell RO thinks they have any kind of business case. But I am extra grumpy because it's hot. No blocking needed.)
Good morning to everyone except the people defending or funding Reflect Orbital.
@sundogplanets If they're finding a way to defend Reflect Orbital, they must be REALLY bad at math.
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@http_error_418 Thank you for trying!
@sundogplanets ah regrettably they say they would only be able to find something that's public, and this info wouldn't be something that's public. However, they tell me it's entirely possible - even probable - Reflect wouldn't yet have bought third party liability insurance, given they've only just received approval. They would have to have it prior to launch yes, but not required before getting approval.
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@sundogplanets It's quite possible (likely?) that a broker will spread out the coverage across multiple underwriters. Example:
LLoyd's for pre-launch
AXA XL for launch
Munich Re for in-orbit
Reflect Orbital would need coverage for all 3. Any one part could be prohibitively expensive enough to delay or prohibit launch.@sundogplanets OP already knows how to look up the FCC filings, and FAA doesn't make the required financial responsibility disclosure public. A FOIA request might work, but could take too long to be useful.
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On first glance (pre-caffeine) it looks like there are a bunch of mansplainers doing math to defend Reflect Orbital in my mentions. FANTASTIC.
(Editing to add that reading more carefully, I think most of it is actually well-intentioned discussion trying to understand how the hell RO thinks they have any kind of business case. But I am extra grumpy because it's hot. No blocking needed.)
Good morning to everyone except the people defending or funding Reflect Orbital.
@sundogplanets I'm flabbergasted that this project made it beyond the sketching on a napkin stage. Putting aside the public safety concerns, (which we shouldn't) how is it possible that people who are smart enough to put a satellite into space cannot do the math and see this would never create more energy than it took to build and launch?
