I'm a big fan of this explanation/rant from Andrew Murphy.
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The fact that we are *not* seeing wildly improving software all around us tells us everything we need to know.
There is no flourishing of value delivery, new product categories, more needs being satisfied better. It’s the opposite.
All we are seeing is decreases in quality, because
code creation is not the problem.@elizayer It's yet another attempt to make coding work for folks who lack logical rigor, by adding another layer of abstraction. The results are predictable.
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@robtherunt @macronencer @elizayer Same! I’ve half jokingly said my bathroom is the most productive room in my home office setup. Sitting on the toilet and lots of a-ha moments
@mroach @robtherunt @macronencer Heck yeah. So let's not even get started on the ways RTO undermines effectiveness....
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The problem AI is meant to solve is wages.
They don't care if quality sucks, if they can avoid paying wages.
Yup if they could produce code that was equal to humans but saved 50 cents they would destroy a million folks lively hood.
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@mroach @robtherunt @macronencer Heck yeah. So let's not even get started on the ways RTO undermines effectiveness....
@elizayer @robtherunt @macronencer Oh let me count the ways…
When I do make an appearance at the office my parting words are usually: I’m headed home so I can get some work done.
Return to office != Return to work -
@diekehrseite Well, @ulveon doesn't say it explicitly, but this case *was* an interesting example of where we could no longer say the LLM "just generating code."
The fact that it can succeed at that level of sophisticated analysis suggests that when we have clear success criteria (e.g. "vuln found"), the LLM can do very hard things indeed.
Agree this will be really interesting to watch!
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@elizayer workaday devs are serfs. Software architects are more crucial than ever. Architects emerge from jr devs through apprenticeship. Go.
@cigitalgem Yeah, I also want to be honest with ourselves.
At least in the US, people change jobs so often -- and promotion practices are so shonky -- that the jr dev-architect flow was already under threat at scale
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@elizayer
WAS not the problem. 🫠@goleztrol hahaha fair!
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Somebody said the the billionaires want to own what you need to survive.
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Somebody said the the billionaires want to own what you need to survive.
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system design.
It took us 2 months and change to code 90% of the requirements. Rolled it out and completely reorganized their workflow without a serious issue.
They ran on that Paradox for DOS system for many years and grew their business throughout without the need to expand their core staff while supplying greatly enhanced service to their customers.They're still out there - https://www.cgfns.org/
@joeinwynnewood @Aedius Amazing! I love a success story like that.
Of course... not all engineering teams are successful at the up-front work. Often out of a combination of weak engineering skills and the wrong environment...
I've come across very few senior managers who have the skill to create an environment where this is possible! Would love to see a recognition of this in leadership circles :sigh:
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@diekehrseite Well, @ulveon doesn't say it explicitly, but this case *was* an interesting example of where we could no longer say the LLM "just generating code."
The fact that it can succeed at that level of sophisticated analysis suggests that when we have clear success criteria (e.g. "vuln found"), the LLM can do very hard things indeed.
Agree this will be really interesting to watch!
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The fact that we are *not* seeing wildly improving software all around us tells us everything we need to know.
There is no flourishing of value delivery, new product categories, more needs being satisfied better. It’s the opposite.
All we are seeing is decreases in quality, because
code creation is not the problem.It started with visual entertainment, say movies - basically no-one makes new films any more, because the VC suits won't fund it. So everyone does remakes of "shit that worked last time". Now, the same thing is happening to software.
Counter-examples of course exist in the FOSS world.
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The fact that we are *not* seeing wildly improving software all around us tells us everything we need to know.
There is no flourishing of value delivery, new product categories, more needs being satisfied better. It’s the opposite.
All we are seeing is decreases in quality, because
code creation is not the problem.@elizayer I think of LLM’s as pattern re-use; applying learned patterns from old data to new situations. Good for menial tasks that are too boring for humans, but not for coming up with radical new things.
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The fact that we are *not* seeing wildly improving software all around us tells us everything we need to know.
There is no flourishing of value delivery, new product categories, more needs being satisfied better. It’s the opposite.
All we are seeing is decreases in quality, because
code creation is not the problem.@elizayer @hbons give me some time. I’ve only been using LLMs to code for a few months… so far I’ve only managed to write an operating system https://codeberg.org/dpp/meows
A new scripting language https://codeberg.org/dpp/meowscript
An eBPF to FPGA converter https://codeberg.org/dpp/lycaon
And some misc utils
But this is weekend work -
@cigitalgem Yeah, I also want to be honest with ourselves.
At least in the US, people change jobs so often -- and promotion practices are so shonky -- that the jr dev-architect flow was already under threat at scale
@elizayer agreed.
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@elizayer @hbons give me some time. I’ve only been using LLMs to code for a few months… so far I’ve only managed to write an operating system https://codeberg.org/dpp/meows
A new scripting language https://codeberg.org/dpp/meowscript
An eBPF to FPGA converter https://codeberg.org/dpp/lycaon
And some misc utils
But this is weekend work -
@syntheticmind_ai @BmeBenji could you explain to me how to write code that outputs a seahorse emoji
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@elizayer @hbons give me some time. I’ve only been using LLMs to code for a few months… so far I’ve only managed to write an operating system https://codeberg.org/dpp/meows
A new scripting language https://codeberg.org/dpp/meowscript
An eBPF to FPGA converter https://codeberg.org/dpp/lycaon
And some misc utils
But this is weekend work -
@elizayer@mastodon.social Claude Code found a 23-year-old Linux vulnerability, the kind a regular human security auditor would have taken weeks or months to find (or in this case, 23 years). https://mtlynch.io/claude-code-found-linux-vulnerability/
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I generally agree!
On the narrow Waymo point, a few things have made me reconsider recently:
- Cyclists who feel Waymos are more predictable and less likely to make the equivalent of attentiveness mistakes. Or to be actively hostile.
- Women and older people who've said they feel vulnerable alone in a car with a driver.
@elizayer
The problem with both Uber and Waymo is that they don't solve the basic problem of cars (the bottleneck if you will): the geometry problem. Cars need too much space and make places, especially cities, less livable for humans.The answer is, and always has been, viable alternatives to driving. Namely, good public transport (with level boarding), good cycling and walking infrastructure. Automated vehicles may have their place in the world but not as mass transport.
