So You Want To Write An Open Source Discord Replacement
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@katarjin.bsky.social @0xabad1dea Idk, I dislike Skype but it did tick those boxes as well :'-D
But it's mostly the UX. I find the threads and channels and idk everything very... overwhelming. I never find the stuff I wanted to reply to.
@ljrk @katarjin.bsky.social @0xabad1dea
I'm with you. I didn't/don't get Slack, Discord, Matrix (and neither IRC). I understand group chats but as soon as they get busy I'm completely overwhelmed and feel left alone by the tools -
@0xabad1dea Also needed:
- a cat mascot!
@catsalad @0xabad1dea catcatchat!
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A system with end-to-end encryption has no access to message content on the server because that is literally the definition of E2E encryption.
That means you will never have access to past content – you weren't in the receiver list of a channel when the message was sent, and you won't retroactively get it, because the server cannot add you. You are essentially joining an empty channel or even server.
That also means that the server cannot look into message content, for example to identify and autoban spammers, work on message moderation or otherwise do what anybody would reasonably expect a server to do in terms of safety and abuse control.
It also means that the server cannot provide you with a meaningful server based search at all. Instead the client has to download the content it has keys for and then search locally. That won't happen except on desktop devices, and even there it won't work well.
You could add a server machine user to every message so that search and automoderation would have access to message content. But that means effectively you don't have, and don't need end, and don't want to end-to-end encryption.
Which you don't.
It's not a cool feature, for anybody except the most limited set of users, and these will still hate every second of the experience they are forced to have by their circumstances.
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@catsalad @0xabad1dea catcatchat!
@maswan @0xabad1dea Two cats and a French cat? Heck yeah!
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@0xabad1dea @shelldozer that does not deter people from using it en masse.
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@0xabad1dea @shelldozer that does not deter people from using it en masse.
@0xabad1dea @shelldozer also, no, i mean the Whatsapp that is co-owned by Walmart, the Italian Mafia, and Migros. Duh.
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@nojhan @0xabad1dea considering where we are and who you're replying to, maybe the source repo would be a better place to direct people?
(It's on github, but things could be worse)
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@0xabad1dea @gabboman if you don't make it distributed, you also have to host the entire bloody thing - which gets expensive once you add video chat and/or screensharing at any meaningful scale
@ratsnakegames WebRTC can work for about 80% of network configuration with just STUN and for small calls at least, especially audio only, the call quality should be at least as good as unboosted Discord. No need to shove any media thru a server. If the rest of the experience is great, this could be fine. And with the right architecture, TURN could be configured per server/channel/whatever, allowing users to either self host that OR pay (opening up a revenue option without forcing monopoly)
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@nojhan @0xabad1dea considering where we are and who you're replying to, maybe the source repo would be a better place to direct people?
(It's on github, but things could be worse)
@nojhan @0xabad1dea also, that looks more like slack
But it's probably *close enough*
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@0xabad1dea "- a user interface that is Normal "
Perhaps "a range of user interfaces to suit a variety of preferences that can be select and changed by the user at will."
Not just light vs dark themes but also the difference between more traditional desktop metaphors (IceWM/XFCE) and the swipe driven small-screen-optimised user experience that many phone users seem to favour (for reasons known to those users).
@the_wub @0xabad1dea
Respectfully, this mindset of infinite customization will drive away all but the most dedicated enthusiasts.I think a priority should be to have a small team of talented UI/UX designers create a likable, aesthetic, and intuitive interface that doesn’t feel like it was designed by an alien species tripping on acid.
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So You Want To Write An Open Source Discord Replacement
Things you don’t need:
- federation/distributed systems
- multiparty end-to-end encryption
- an entirely new operating system kernel specially designed to—Things you DO need:
- a user interface that is Normal
- the ability to use languages other than English and writing systems other than Latin
- higher standards of user experience than how irc actually works in the real world
- any fucking clue how Discord works and why people use itI have muted replies to this post due to the usual reasons
I disagree about federation and encryption. Any platform which is centralized or not encrypted will inevitably be co-opted by fascists and capitalists. Antifascism and anticapitalism should be primary design goals for all software projects regardless of whether or not the masses care.
I think you're spot on with everything else. It's possible to meet those goals while providing the features and UX people want. We don't have to choose between safety and convenience.
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@0xabad1dea @jenesuispasgoth ok but everyone and their grandma can make a chat system. And tchap is a frontend for element.io
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@katarjin.bsky.social
The basic concept is fine. The user interface is a mess. -
To be honest I do not think the normal user who is just sick of Discord and looks for something similar does really care, but it is good to have it in case you want it later I guess
Most of my friends do not even know what federation means, I have to explain to them what I learned from using Mastodon and WAFRN myself
@crowfea
That normal user will care in a few years when the platform is bought out by a sociopathic billionaire and everyone has to start all over from scratch. -
So You Want To Write An Open Source Discord Replacement
Things you don’t need:
- federation/distributed systems
- multiparty end-to-end encryption
- an entirely new operating system kernel specially designed to—Things you DO need:
- a user interface that is Normal
- the ability to use languages other than English and writing systems other than Latin
- higher standards of user experience than how irc actually works in the real world
- any fucking clue how Discord works and why people use itI have muted replies to this post due to the usual reasons
@0xabad1dea Counterpoint on the federation thing: I don't want to make 50 different accounts for 50 different instances. So at the very least federated identity and authentication should be supported, if not actual message federation.
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@ljrk @katarjin.bsky.social @0xabad1dea
I'm with you. I didn't/don't get Slack, Discord, Matrix (and neither IRC). I understand group chats but as soon as they get busy I'm completely overwhelmed and feel left alone by the tools@realn2s @katarjin.bsky.social @0xabad1dea IRC I can work with (I use Halloy), but only smaller group chats ^^'
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So You Want To Write An Open Source Discord Replacement
Things you don’t need:
- federation/distributed systems
- multiparty end-to-end encryption
- an entirely new operating system kernel specially designed to—Things you DO need:
- a user interface that is Normal
- the ability to use languages other than English and writing systems other than Latin
- higher standards of user experience than how irc actually works in the real world
- any fucking clue how Discord works and why people use itI have muted replies to this post due to the usual reasons
@0xabad1dea > So You Want To Write An Open Source Discord Replacement
I really don't, it sounds like a lot of difficult and thankless work… oh I get it.
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I disagree about federation and encryption. Any platform which is centralized or not encrypted will inevitably be co-opted by fascists and capitalists. Antifascism and anticapitalism should be primary design goals for all software projects regardless of whether or not the masses care.
I think you're spot on with everything else. It's possible to meet those goals while providing the features and UX people want. We don't have to choose between safety and convenience.
@krapp @0xabad1dea I think when she says no federation she means that each organization hosts its own server which functions completely independently of others. Since discord is divided into different "servers" which you have to switch between, its fine if its replacement makes you switch between different REAL servers in order to message different groups.
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I disagree about federation and encryption. Any platform which is centralized or not encrypted will inevitably be co-opted by fascists and capitalists. Antifascism and anticapitalism should be primary design goals for all software projects regardless of whether or not the masses care.
I think you're spot on with everything else. It's possible to meet those goals while providing the features and UX people want. We don't have to choose between safety and convenience.
@krapp @0xabad1dea Also my impression is that the primary use case for discord is for very large groupchats, frequently open to anyone on the internet, in which case encryption isn't very useful as bad actors can either join the chat themselves, or send phishing emails to all 100 chat members knowing that one will probably take the bait. If you want to chat with a small group of people confidentially, signal already exists.
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@the_wub @0xabad1dea
Respectfully, this mindset of infinite customization will drive away all but the most dedicated enthusiasts.I think a priority should be to have a small team of talented UI/UX designers create a likable, aesthetic, and intuitive interface that doesn’t feel like it was designed by an alien species tripping on acid.
@freediverx @0xabad1dea I said nothing about an "infinite" number of options.
As for "likable, aesthetic, and intuitive interface" beauty is, and always has been in the eye of the beholder. As is "intuitive".
It is impossible to make UIs that fit all devices and fit all users. There are idioms in "modern" UI that still catch me out.
Like making a "search" or "add (contact)" button a free floating element in a completely different colour instead of being a choice under the main menu element.
