HEY.
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@PsyChuan@plush.city they're telling on themselves
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HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan Common ownership can work, just like you can get an agreed optimal Prisoners Dilemma. However, even without enclosure by some external actor (such as occurred in the Scottish highlands), it can end in a tragegic outcome. A clear example is in our repeated failures in different fisheries to agree to manage fish stocks sustainably.
-
HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan The commons worked because everyone was taking from it as much as they personally needed.
It fails when someone builds a factory next to the commons and is obliged to maximise their extraction to meet shareholder targets.
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HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan caverate, its only bullshit if you live outside capitalism. From inside the current mess it is still badly relevant.
We need social composting
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The biggest problem really was that the water infrastructure had been let degrade to the point where about 60% of treated water was leaking into the ground.
This was happening both sides of domestic boundaries.
But not only was introducing charges political suicide during austerity, the paternalistic attitude to the public was just that, and people weren't overusing water just because they could.
The current biggest issue is malfunctioning toilets, I believe.
@davey_cakes @dalius_berger @PsyChuan Yes, and many modern toilets have leaky valves that mean you have to replace the entire flush unit because either it's a sealed unit or the particular size and design of valve is no longer available. The older toilets, whilst using more water, tended to be easier to fix
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@dalius_berger @PsyChuan there was a controversy in the Republic of Ireland because water was unmetered and free so OBVIOUSLY people were squandering it.
A coalition including the Green Party began to roll out metering and set up a utility to charge people. It got massive popular resistance and was ultimately defeated, but the meters did go in.
When the dust settled it turned out Irish people used less water on average than the metered, privatised. UK.
Metering did help find leaks though.
@davey_cakes @dalius_berger @PsyChuan Amazing story, thank you for sharing!
Can you share some further readings so that I can read more about this?
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@PsyChuan caverate, its only bullshit if you live outside capitalism. From inside the current mess it is still badly relevant.
We need social composting
@witchescauldron @PsyChuan You CAN have some forms of capitalism whilst still regulating the commons for everyone's benefit, I believe. But it does need restraint and legal restriction to do so. Personally, I would probably prefer Capitalism as we have it now to be dismantled, but there doesn't appear to be enough people to agree with me, so we might have to work on the legal and practical regulation.
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HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
thank you for this clear & concise summary
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@matildalove @0x4d6165 @PsyChuan that's exactly it - it's a threat, not an explanation of any kind.
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@matildalove @0x4d6165 @PsyChuan This is exactly my takeaway from the lesson.
Don't let assholes ruin the commons. Whether that's by stealing from it, enclosing pieces of it or just general asshattery.
Douchebags are inevitable, knock them down as needed.
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@davey_cakes @dalius_berger @PsyChuan Amazing story, thank you for sharing!
Can you share some further readings so that I can read more about this?
@nacly @dalius_berger @PsyChuan
I don't know where to get a good long read that provides an overview, it was a big part of Irish news for a while.
Here's an article about the over-estimate and other details, like how leaks were the biggest issue by a mile:
"It had been estimated homes could be using up to 190 litres per person per day,"
"But it has emerged that 93% of households are only using about 250 litres per day, or just over 80 litres per person."
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@nacly @dalius_berger @PsyChuan
I don't know where to get a good long read that provides an overview, it was a big part of Irish news for a while.
Here's an article about the over-estimate and other details, like how leaks were the biggest issue by a mile:
"It had been estimated homes could be using up to 190 litres per person per day,"
"But it has emerged that 93% of households are only using about 250 litres per day, or just over 80 litres per person."
@davey_cakes @dalius_berger @PsyChuan Thank you!
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@matildalove @0x4d6165 @PsyChuan This is exactly my takeaway from the lesson.
Don't let assholes ruin the commons. Whether that's by stealing from it, enclosing pieces of it or just general asshattery.
Douchebags are inevitable, knock them down as needed.
@gooba42 yooooo Doctor Steel!
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HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan The "tragedy of the commons" depends on a flawed definition of rationality. (I've tried to trace that notion back—someone told me Hume?) Under "superrationality" (something which parents teach their 6-year-old children, so not *that* super), there would be no tragedy of the commons. And indeed that's why commons worked and continue to work in many times and places, as you point out.
The very idea that they can't work undermines their working.
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@gooba42 yooooo Doctor Steel!
@PsyChuan I've heard questionable things about the man, but the idea is way more important and timeless.
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@PsyChuan I've heard questionable things about the man, but the idea is way more important and timeless.
@gooba42 wait what questionable things?
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@gooba42 wait what questionable things?
@PsyChuan Sounds like he was a nightmare of a philanderer.
The utopian playland needs to be remembered.
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@witchescauldron @PsyChuan You CAN have some forms of capitalism whilst still regulating the commons for everyone's benefit, I believe. But it does need restraint and legal restriction to do so. Personally, I would probably prefer Capitalism as we have it now to be dismantled, but there doesn't appear to be enough people to agree with me, so we might have to work on the legal and practical regulation.
No. Capitalism is evil to the core, there is no baby in the bathwater. Imagine saying back in the day: "Personally, I would probably prefer chattel slavery as we have it now to be dismantled, but there doesn't appear to be enough people to agree with me, so we might have to work on the legal and practical regulation."
It's the same with capitalism. Don't even consider compromising with it!
Besides, state is also evil to the core. You can't use it against capitalism, and the rule of law is bullshit.
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@PsyChuan Common ownership can work, just like you can get an agreed optimal Prisoners Dilemma. However, even without enclosure by some external actor (such as occurred in the Scottish highlands), it can end in a tragegic outcome. A clear example is in our repeated failures in different fisheries to agree to manage fish stocks sustainably.
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@PsyChuan The atmosphere is a commons. We all use it to breathe and generally rely on it not to change too much.
Many people dump CO2 into the atmosphere, changing its properties and behaviour, leading to harm.
Everyone experiences the harm, including those who don't change the atmosphere.
Some people dump much, much more than others but face no additional costs.
If this isn't a tragedy of a commons I don't know what it is.
