When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful!
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer
I also think, that batteries/storage solutions are one of the next necessary steps. -
When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer "It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry." I think you're on to something here!
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer We need constant reliability and have legacy constraints. Utilities *should* be cautious and slow to change. It's moving, but it's not entirely clear how you get from current state to a better grid, given regulator/rate-payer caution and ignorance. If all loads are now DC from a grid perspective, maybe we need an entirely new grid. And in some place we are doing that.
The grid started as disjoint, private, local (often coop) efforts. The new grid might well start the same way.
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@jwildeboer you are right on this. Digital media is managed for scarcity. But in pysical world it is not so much different - most scarcity is artificial. If we would organize smarter, distribute better, produce more intelligently, many many people would suffer way less.
@Reinald @jwildeboer Yes, in theory. As someone who grew up in a centrally planned economy, I'm doubtful that the society can do much better than capitalism.
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer
You might already know this, but on both days last weekend the UK grid was so awash with renewable electricity that prices went negative. Customers on price-tracking tariffs were paid to use electricity for most of the day. -
@jwildeboer @openrisk yes and no. Ending Scarcity is not in the interest of big companies in that area. And the Technologie is allready there - batteries work (even commercially), H2 electrolysis not yet, seasonal cycles not yet. For short term stabilizing even flywheels work.
@Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk
Batteries come with their own set of problems, which is not to say these are insurmountable, specifically social and environmental costs in acquiring the raw materials.The real difficulty, as I see it, is that we can produce excess energy for half the year but consumption in the other half exceeds production. Can we run energy intensive industries for just half the year? Otherwise we need ways to store energy for the other half.
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@valhalla @jwildeboer ironing clothing should be fine as well
@lechimp @jwildeboer an useful use of energy? very
but I could have been eating cake!
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@Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk
Batteries come with their own set of problems, which is not to say these are insurmountable, specifically social and environmental costs in acquiring the raw materials.The real difficulty, as I see it, is that we can produce excess energy for half the year but consumption in the other half exceeds production. Can we run energy intensive industries for just half the year? Otherwise we need ways to store energy for the other half.
@OneInterestingFact @Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk Since I can see #batteries mentioned in this thread, have you heard about this project? #flowbattery #opensourcehardware
https://fbrc.dev/ -
(No need to reply with "not me!", I know you know better. I exaggerated with the inclusive "we" to make my point clear. The majority of people out there don't have thinking about a better, more decentralised and self-balancing grid to make electricity more of a flat rate commodity on their priority list.)
@jwildeboer It's not only framed as a BAD thing, it is claimed that "too much renewable energy" costs a lot of money.
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@Reinald @jwildeboer Yes, in theory. As someone who grew up in a centrally planned economy, I'm doubtful that the society can do much better than capitalism.
@ptesarik @Reinald @jwildeboer you are mistaken. I’ve seen what capitalism can give and what the costs are, it doesn’t work. Death is the driving force of capitalism, you buy or you die. Those that don’t buy are not removed, they are left to suffer as long as possible so others can watch the suffering and learn. We will feed you but it will not be nutritious. We will shelter you but only for a night. We will stop you from dying but won’t heal you.
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@ptesarik @Reinald @jwildeboer you are mistaken. I’ve seen what capitalism can give and what the costs are, it doesn’t work. Death is the driving force of capitalism, you buy or you die. Those that don’t buy are not removed, they are left to suffer as long as possible so others can watch the suffering and learn. We will feed you but it will not be nutritious. We will shelter you but only for a night. We will stop you from dying but won’t heal you.
@passwordsarehard4 @Reinald @jwildeboer I'm not trying to say capitalism is better than what it is. But I've seen what socialism can give and what the costs are, it doesn't work. Hell, it has all the flaws of capitalism and some more. I can compare, because I've seen both socialism and capitalism.
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@jwildeboer you are right on this. Digital media is managed for scarcity. But in pysical world it is not so much different - most scarcity is artificial. If we would organize smarter, distribute better, produce more intelligently, many many people would suffer way less.
@Reinald @jwildeboer That's why I bristle at the term "consuming" music, or news, or a book. Let's get back to listening and reading. Who started this ridiculous, inaccurate and ideologically loaded terminology anyway
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@Reinald There's real scarcity and artificial scarcity. I dare say that the whole digital/internet business is based on artificial scarcity, where we accept things like Digital Rights Management to keep the reality of abundance more or less a secret.
@jwildeboer I have tought for many years about the supposed abundance of digital goods, and one problem is that the situation is incorrectly stated. Digital goods are asymmetrical. They are aboundant after creation. But they don't pop into existence done. Creation relies on scarce resources (time/people). So the imbalance is what it makes it hard to deal with, and a pure capitalistic approach tries to extend that scarcity beyond creation, to make a profit.
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@Reinald @jwildeboer @openrisk
Batteries come with their own set of problems, which is not to say these are insurmountable, specifically social and environmental costs in acquiring the raw materials.The real difficulty, as I see it, is that we can produce excess energy for half the year but consumption in the other half exceeds production. Can we run energy intensive industries for just half the year? Otherwise we need ways to store energy for the other half.
@OneInterestingFact @jwildeboer @openrisk
Raw material: same issue like any other raw material humans dig from earth. Can be handled.Lithium: there are other chemical partners, Natrium gets better, and for stationary use it is allready good to go.
Seasonal storage: don't forget wind and solar go together. When we have low solar harvest, we tend to have more wind. Seasonal storage is not yet solved, but there are quite some promising approaches.
Flow batteries don't deliver yet.
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net
Ummm, grids need to maintain specific frequencies, or else they start shutting down. That happens in both underloads & overloads. That's the "bad" thing, independent of any economic ideology - no "brainwashing" needed to comprehend - and the things that usually get shut down in those moments heading to overload are peakers running on natural gas, not the plants doing the baseline loads. So either battery capacity is there or not, and plenty of capitalists would be happy to sell more of that stuff too. What is missing is regulatory flexibility in many places, seems to me too many people are denied legal avenues if they want to just power part of their residence or business off- grid.
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@passwordsarehard4 @Reinald @jwildeboer I'm not trying to say capitalism is better than what it is. But I've seen what socialism can give and what the costs are, it doesn't work. Hell, it has all the flaws of capitalism and some more. I can compare, because I've seen both socialism and capitalism.
@ptesarik @passwordsarehard4 @Reinald @jwildeboer This is the false binary choice between socialism and capitalism that has been pushed upon us for and used by nefarious political actors for over a hundred years now.
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@Reinald There's real scarcity and artificial scarcity. I dare say that the whole digital/internet business is based on artificial scarcity, where we accept things like Digital Rights Management to keep the reality of abundance more or less a secret.
@jwildeboer @Reinald Artificial scarcity is what the Economics 101 crowd of supply and demand dogmatics fail to account for.
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(No need to reply with "not me!", I know you know better. I exaggerated with the inclusive "we" to make my point clear. The majority of people out there don't have thinking about a better, more decentralised and self-balancing grid to make electricity more of a flat rate commodity on their priority list.)
@jwildeboer afaik this is already happening in various places, for example on california, where they hooked up user's batteries to the grid (includong EV's), and the utility was able to pull into the grid at peak time to avoid blackouts. They also changed building code to require all new construction to have solar panels. The EU otoh is very behing on both central and distributed battery. And I see no mandates to install solar in the southern states where a crapton of energy could be made.
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@jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net
Ummm, grids need to maintain specific frequencies, or else they start shutting down. That happens in both underloads & overloads. That's the "bad" thing, independent of any economic ideology - no "brainwashing" needed to comprehend - and the things that usually get shut down in those moments heading to overload are peakers running on natural gas, not the plants doing the baseline loads. So either battery capacity is there or not, and plenty of capitalists would be happy to sell more of that stuff too. What is missing is regulatory flexibility in many places, seems to me too many people are denied legal avenues if they want to just power part of their residence or business off- grid.
@sberson We already discussed that in many other replies here. For example https://social.wildeboer.net/@jwildeboer/116430923318183567 and the replies before and after that.
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@jwildeboer afaik this is already happening in various places, for example on california, where they hooked up user's batteries to the grid (includong EV's), and the utility was able to pull into the grid at peak time to avoid blackouts. They also changed building code to require all new construction to have solar panels. The EU otoh is very behing on both central and distributed battery. And I see no mandates to install solar in the southern states where a crapton of energy could be made.
@simo5 France demands solar panels to cover any parking site with more than 80 parking spaces. EPBD (Energy Performance of Buildings Directive) demands solar design as part of the permit process for new building. Things are changing. https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-efficiency/energy-performance-buildings/energy-performance-buildings-directive/solar-energy-buildings_en
