I'm coming to the conclusion that community-owned and operated small clouds (co-ops) with easy onramps for self-hosting open source services like mail, storage, and VPN are the only way forward.
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I'm coming to the conclusion that community-owned and operated small clouds (co-ops) with easy onramps for self-hosting open source services like mail, storage, and VPN are the only way forward. Every corpo service is eventually going to make you ashamed to use it.
@mttaggart I have heard of this model being used in Barcelona. I think that @brunovianna might be able to provide further information.
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@mttaggart @philcowans @vfrmedia it's not scale that we're concerned about. scale is not the blocker we are identifying.
@ireneista @philcowans @vfrmedia I understand. That was more in response to the DEF CON conversation. I think and hope I understand your concerns.
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@ireneista @philcowans @vfrmedia I understand. That was more in response to the DEF CON conversation. I think and hope I understand your concerns.
@mttaggart @philcowans @vfrmedia yeah, we do think you do. sorry if that was intense, the feelings we're having are about us, not you, don't worry.
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@mttaggart @philcowans @vfrmedia yeah, we do think you do. sorry if that was intense, the feelings we're having are about us, not you, don't worry.
@ireneista @philcowans @vfrmedia Not at all. I deeply share your concerns, although I am not living them as y'all are. I wish I had better answers.
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@ireneista @philcowans @vfrmedia Not at all. I deeply share your concerns, although I am not living them as y'all are. I wish I had better answers.
@mttaggart @philcowans @vfrmedia all anyone can do is our best
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@mttaggart I love that. Need to do some more research, but would love to get involved with making a US, or even US regional version of this happen.
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I'm coming to the conclusion that community-owned and operated small clouds (co-ops) with easy onramps for self-hosting open source services like mail, storage, and VPN are the only way forward. Every corpo service is eventually going to make you ashamed to use it.
@mttaggart see @thedarktangent recent post on the difficulties of hosting email and VPN services.
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I'm coming to the conclusion that community-owned and operated small clouds (co-ops) with easy onramps for self-hosting open source services like mail, storage, and VPN are the only way forward. Every corpo service is eventually going to make you ashamed to use it.
@mttaggart yeah i agree with this, my main issue right now is that making software for the average person that happens to be properly decentralized is quite hard
they struggle a lot to understand the separation between the app and the server, or what a server even is, and i feel that if we want to make huge change, we have to educate the people and redo the way people see these kinds of services altogether
(... plus build less technical spaces that offer a better and more interesting service than the corpo alternative)
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@mttaggart see @thedarktangent recent post on the difficulties of hosting email and VPN services.
@deepthoughts10 @thedarktangent It's been shared a few times in here
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@mttaggart see @thedarktangent recent post on the difficulties of hosting email and VPN services.
@deepthoughts10 @mttaggart @thedarktangent Do you have a link to that post?
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@ShaulaEvans Yes, it's been shared elsewhere in here! I think it's important to think about the issues of scale and what staying small might change about the calculus—both good and bad.
@mttaggart I hope you can find a way to do it! I wish you all the best.
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@mttaggart yeah i agree with this, my main issue right now is that making software for the average person that happens to be properly decentralized is quite hard
they struggle a lot to understand the separation between the app and the server, or what a server even is, and i feel that if we want to make huge change, we have to educate the people and redo the way people see these kinds of services altogether
(... plus build less technical spaces that offer a better and more interesting service than the corpo alternative)
@nelson I would venture that "we just have to educate them" is a strategy with a poor track record. And that's coming from an educator.
I suggest that the tools must make those distinctions effortless or unnecessary to the user.
I think @HolosSocial is on the right track.
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@deepthoughts10 @mttaggart @thedarktangent Do you have a link to that post?
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@nelson I would venture that "we just have to educate them" is a strategy with a poor track record. And that's coming from an educator.
I suggest that the tools must make those distinctions effortless or unnecessary to the user.
I think @HolosSocial is on the right track.
@mttaggart @HolosSocial i disagree with making it 100% turbo decentralized and exist kind of like a cloud in the middle of nowhere because that has been tried in stuff like matrix and others and it just has led to a lot of different issues, mostly because of how media proxies work and how it entirely destroys any sense of moderation.
i still think it is a good idea to create something more akin to... towns, that specific people with enough time can dedicate their resources to mantaining, so that other people can join freely and adhere to existing rules, kind of like the fediverse, but removing the "black box" element of "you just join and it just works" even though it's a federated system
i think the way through is not unification, but intentional separation of the presentation and rules and structure of each instance, but total unification of the protocol and basics so that people can choose their own client and technology can be simplified to them
i think that... there's also a nomenclature issue in how we manage this kind of thing, right? where we call it "the fediverse" and "federated" and "decentralized" on "servers" that "speak activitypub" and use the "mastodon api" for the "client", it's just very confusing when you frame it as open source tech specifications when it should be treated instead with analogies and metaphors, which is how the early days of personal widespread computing got their way with letting people understand how the underlying tech works: the wallpaper, the files, the desktop, the recycle bin... all of these are analogs for real life objects
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@deepthoughts10 Thank you!
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@mttaggart @HolosSocial i disagree with making it 100% turbo decentralized and exist kind of like a cloud in the middle of nowhere because that has been tried in stuff like matrix and others and it just has led to a lot of different issues, mostly because of how media proxies work and how it entirely destroys any sense of moderation.
i still think it is a good idea to create something more akin to... towns, that specific people with enough time can dedicate their resources to mantaining, so that other people can join freely and adhere to existing rules, kind of like the fediverse, but removing the "black box" element of "you just join and it just works" even though it's a federated system
i think the way through is not unification, but intentional separation of the presentation and rules and structure of each instance, but total unification of the protocol and basics so that people can choose their own client and technology can be simplified to them
i think that... there's also a nomenclature issue in how we manage this kind of thing, right? where we call it "the fediverse" and "federated" and "decentralized" on "servers" that "speak activitypub" and use the "mastodon api" for the "client", it's just very confusing when you frame it as open source tech specifications when it should be treated instead with analogies and metaphors, which is how the early days of personal widespread computing got their way with letting people understand how the underlying tech works: the wallpaper, the files, the desktop, the recycle bin... all of these are analogs for real life objects
@nelson @HolosSocial I don't disagree here with any particular point, but I again believe that the burden is on system designers, not users.
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@mttaggart @HolosSocial i disagree with making it 100% turbo decentralized and exist kind of like a cloud in the middle of nowhere because that has been tried in stuff like matrix and others and it just has led to a lot of different issues, mostly because of how media proxies work and how it entirely destroys any sense of moderation.
i still think it is a good idea to create something more akin to... towns, that specific people with enough time can dedicate their resources to mantaining, so that other people can join freely and adhere to existing rules, kind of like the fediverse, but removing the "black box" element of "you just join and it just works" even though it's a federated system
i think the way through is not unification, but intentional separation of the presentation and rules and structure of each instance, but total unification of the protocol and basics so that people can choose their own client and technology can be simplified to them
i think that... there's also a nomenclature issue in how we manage this kind of thing, right? where we call it "the fediverse" and "federated" and "decentralized" on "servers" that "speak activitypub" and use the "mastodon api" for the "client", it's just very confusing when you frame it as open source tech specifications when it should be treated instead with analogies and metaphors, which is how the early days of personal widespread computing got their way with letting people understand how the underlying tech works: the wallpaper, the files, the desktop, the recycle bin... all of these are analogs for real life objects
@mttaggart @HolosSocial oh and it might be a good idea to make each town intentionally small, you also want to avoid towns to grow so big they end up "centralizing" the network and making specific instances have more power than the rest
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@mttaggart @HolosSocial oh and it might be a good idea to make each town intentionally small, you also want to avoid towns to grow so big they end up "centralizing" the network and making specific instances have more power than the rest
@nelson @HolosSocial I encourage you to read the rest of this thread discussing all the pros and cons of small scales. I tend to agree but it is not without risk.
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@nelson @HolosSocial I encourage you to read the rest of this thread discussing all the pros and cons of small scales. I tend to agree but it is not without risk.
@mttaggart @HolosSocial it's a very worthwhile read, thanks for engaging in conversation! i literally dedicate my life to this kind of thing, so it's awesome to read from others.
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I'm coming to the conclusion that community-owned and operated small clouds (co-ops) with easy onramps for self-hosting open source services like mail, storage, and VPN are the only way forward. Every corpo service is eventually going to make you ashamed to use it.
@mttaggart are there any working examples of this? I would happily put my money into smaller more distributed clouds. Especially as I think it would help move "cloud native" tooling from a term we use to describe a handful of proprietary dashboards to something more fundamental and shared.
