Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software.
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@peach @davidgerard @DamonWakes @libreoffice you get the point. If a human has put in the work to understand and verify each line of code, but maybe the implementation was done in an elegant way by an LLM in short time, then that is good code. The product is what counts. The fear behind SLOP callers is just that the code is unexplainable and mysterious, and you fix that by human review.
@kingsgambit @davidgerard @DamonWakes @libreoffice the term SLOP is the process though. It’s the lack of care and just using models that are 100% based on stolen works. The ends don’t justify the means. Sorry I don’t make the rules.
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@VileLasagna you implied that it's still slop though, even with their restrictions, which require human review and understanding. So that fully translates to my example.
@kingsgambit Oh, apologies for the confusion, let me clarify:
Yes, it IS slop.
Whether the slop appears functional or correct of truthful or whatever is irrelevant. Slop is slop, that's just what it is.
Libreoffice is there arguing that they only allow the best slop in, you see, so it's fine. I am not interested in how much they like the slop that they approve, I still find said slop deeply repulsive.
Definitionally, LLM output is slop. People's opinions on the content don't change that fact
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
"If you intend to use an LLM to make lots of patches in one area, start small to avoid having to make many changes after code review feedback."
As in you expect to have to change it more than usual code because it's so ass??
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@kingsgambit @davidgerard @DamonWakes @libreoffice the term SLOP is the process though. It’s the lack of care and just using models that are 100% based on stolen works. The ends don’t justify the means. Sorry I don’t make the rules.
@peach @davidgerard @DamonWakes @libreoffice That's fine, but it's like deciding to keep running in a race where others are using cars. Sure, they might not be very talented, driving is not that complicated ("lack of care"), but they will overtake you. And leave you with a vulnerable, left-behind software product, if we shall leave the analogy and get back to the actual application here.
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@kingsgambit Oh, apologies for the confusion, let me clarify:
Yes, it IS slop.
Whether the slop appears functional or correct of truthful or whatever is irrelevant. Slop is slop, that's just what it is.
Libreoffice is there arguing that they only allow the best slop in, you see, so it's fine. I am not interested in how much they like the slop that they approve, I still find said slop deeply repulsive.
Definitionally, LLM output is slop. People's opinions on the content don't change that fact
@VileLasagna Okay but then, since you are not arguing on the quality of the code and rather on the semantics of who wrote it, it's a little pointless as a critique? That's like saying "the code might be good but my neighbour, who I hate, wrote it, so it's shit".
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice "We" "do not" "accept" "any" ""slop""
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@VileLasagna Okay but then, since you are not arguing on the quality of the code and rather on the semantics of who wrote it, it's a little pointless as a critique? That's like saying "the code might be good but my neighbour, who I hate, wrote it, so it's shit".
@kingsgambit Sure, and that sounds unreasonable because when you hear a hypothetical like that, you imagine everyday squabbles. Loud music, annoying dog, maybe some trash stank up the street once.
It also places the code itself as value neutral. It's just some code.
But neither of that apply, yeah? The reasons why people loathe LLMs so intensely are WAY beyond silly everyday stuff like that.
Even LO knows this, it's why they made their whole marketing stunt in the first place. [+1]
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@kingsgambit Yes, very astute of you! If you read my toot, you'll find out that this is exactly what I meant and this response is not at all an attempt at a distraction by derailing the conversation into arguing irrelevant semantics!
Well spotted, I stand defeated forever and, as penitence will allow OpenAI to install ChatGPT in the brain of my firstborn child..
@VileLasagna
Why are you overreacting emotionally? Why can't you debate rationally? -
@kingsgambit Sure, and that sounds unreasonable because when you hear a hypothetical like that, you imagine everyday squabbles. Loud music, annoying dog, maybe some trash stank up the street once.
It also places the code itself as value neutral. It's just some code.
But neither of that apply, yeah? The reasons why people loathe LLMs so intensely are WAY beyond silly everyday stuff like that.
Even LO knows this, it's why they made their whole marketing stunt in the first place. [+1]
@kingsgambit I'm not going to talk about whether the safeguards they have means they CAN have good code or whatnot because this discussion IS a distraction.
If you're actually looking at the code and asking this question you've already skipped past some pretty fucking egregious reasons to not engage the fascist theft machine.
So... yeah. Slop bad, I'm sorry, the ship has sailed, sunk and we're all trapped drowning in it
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@rzeta0 @libreoffice You’re being sarcastic, right?
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@kingsgambit Oh, apologies for the confusion, let me clarify:
Yes, it IS slop.
Whether the slop appears functional or correct of truthful or whatever is irrelevant. Slop is slop, that's just what it is.
Libreoffice is there arguing that they only allow the best slop in, you see, so it's fine. I am not interested in how much they like the slop that they approve, I still find said slop deeply repulsive.
Definitionally, LLM output is slop. People's opinions on the content don't change that fact
I think you have a narrow worldview when it comes to the use of AI. To you, a "2" is not just another "2" if it's written by an LLM. That's seriously cringey.
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@VileLasagna
Why are you overreacting emotionally? Why can't you debate rationally?@Gegenwind Sorry, mate (legit).
Internet being what it is, I can't tell if that's a sincere question or a sarcastic commiserate remark on how people use this sort of line of questioning to try and manipulate the conversation away to somewhere they can pretend this is a simple, technical and politically neutral conversation.
Your feed makes me inclined to believe you wouldn't be coming here in bad faith so I feel compelled to check
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@rzeta0 @libreoffice I just asked a question.
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@VileLasagna @libreoffice Ah, so a if AI writes 1+1=2, it's not true anymore, and jUsT sLoP? You guys are completely losing track ...
@kingsgambit @VileLasagna @libreoffice Yeah, that's totally what they were saying. You did it! Gold star.
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@VileLasagna Okay but then, since you are not arguing on the quality of the code and rather on the semantics of who wrote it, it's a little pointless as a critique? That's like saying "the code might be good but my neighbour, who I hate, wrote it, so it's shit".
@kingsgambit @VileLasagna Well, when your neighbor only writes shit code and is notorious for writing shit code, then yeah, why would you accept it?
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@peach @davidgerard @DamonWakes @libreoffice That's fine, but it's like deciding to keep running in a race where others are using cars. Sure, they might not be very talented, driving is not that complicated ("lack of care"), but they will overtake you. And leave you with a vulnerable, left-behind software product, if we shall leave the analogy and get back to the actual application here.
@kingsgambit @peach @davidgerard @DamonWakes @libreoffice You keep setting up these bizarre strawmen and then knocking them down. I'm just surprised you can do it with only one free hand.
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice NOT GOOD ENOUGH. What about energy and water use on a dying planet? The theft of intellectual property? The further enrichment of dangerously unstable tech billionaires? Do better, LibreOffice!
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@peach @davidgerard @DamonWakes @libreoffice That's fine, but it's like deciding to keep running in a race where others are using cars. Sure, they might not be very talented, driving is not that complicated ("lack of care"), but they will overtake you. And leave you with a vulnerable, left-behind software product, if we shall leave the analogy and get back to the actual application here.
@kingsgambit @peach @davidgerard @DamonWakes @libreoffice This oft-repeated "you are gonna be left behind" nonsense is getting so old.
It doesn't matter if slop generation is faster, it's *still* slop. You AI-bros and your desperate need to ignore everything wrong with AI is beyond pathetic.
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@libreoffice "It doesn't rewrite your content"
False, I have a list of songs that I like (Started making it YEARS ago when my Youtube playlist kept deleting videos/songs that I saved). Whenever I add a - dash - between the artist and song name, hitting space after the song name changes the dash into a bigger dash.
I also had to fight tooth and nail to figure out how to stop LibreOffice writer from auto-correcting words, because it thought I misspelled certain words.
So no, Libreoffice DOES rewrite the things I type down, and can be quite annoying for that.
@Cushee_Foofee you can definitely deactivate that. @libreoffice
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@kingsgambit @peach @davidgerard @DamonWakes @libreoffice This oft-repeated "you are gonna be left behind" nonsense is getting so old.
It doesn't matter if slop generation is faster, it's *still* slop. You AI-bros and your desperate need to ignore everything wrong with AI is beyond pathetic.
@nurglerider @peach @davidgerard @DamonWakes @libreoffice See, that's where we disagree. In my world, 1+1 will always equal 2. And if we want to value human over machine-generated things, then we should try not to leave reason behind as the first measure, because that's our common human denominator. But do in your world whatever you want.
