I've said many times that the central thing to me in the UK-EU relationship was a change in the direction of travel.
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@phloggen
You can call it politics.A stabil state and proven former member should and could be treated different like new candidates.
To be crystal clear. Having an European coalition of the willing maybe with an open war scenario would make a reunion block absolutely nonsense. Asking for anti aircraft or anti missiles units if they target an UK or EU threat.
Weigh it up with struggles about fishing zones, blocking trucks on the border but welcome tanks n nukes and tell me it is a serious or wise concern to fight it out 10 years, if russia will give us max 4 years to prepare.
That counts for EU and UK citizens in the same way.
@pascal_f @phloggen @ProjectFearlessness
Not that I would oppose it, but I don't think the UK will reapply in the next four years. However, I strongly hope that cooperation and trust between the UK and the EU will increase at a rising pace through the period and with a consistent understanding of the threat posed by Russia.
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An added point to this: I think the exit also had the advantage that it demonstrated that the EU is—by design—powerless to stop a country from leaving. Sovereignty is perpetually maintained in the member states.
This is also worth noting in relation to an eventual UK rejoin. The EU has to be absolutely convinced that the UK won't just turn around and leave 1-2 elections later. Because even after a rejoin the power to do that is still maintained in the UK.
@SuneAuken
That is true.Communities are made by members and without members no communities.
But is an on/off scenario like Trumps taxes a serious one for UK, while voices in Scotland and Wales calling for independency empowered by Brexit?
One Brexit was expensive. FBPE will be expensive too.
How rich is UK or any other country to afford an on/offs cascade.While I'm pretty sure, the next one would be the last one for generations from EU side, when EU itself will not tear apart to solo actors.
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@SuneAuken
That is true.Communities are made by members and without members no communities.
But is an on/off scenario like Trumps taxes a serious one for UK, while voices in Scotland and Wales calling for independency empowered by Brexit?
One Brexit was expensive. FBPE will be expensive too.
How rich is UK or any other country to afford an on/offs cascade.While I'm pretty sure, the next one would be the last one for generations from EU side, when EU itself will not tear apart to solo actors.
I am sure the UK cannot afford it, and to some extent neither can the EU. Building trust and building cooperation is key. I would prefer it to happen at a higher pace, but having followed UK politics intensely ever since the Brexit vote I am more hopeful now than I have been for a long time.
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I am sure the UK cannot afford it, and to some extent neither can the EU. Building trust and building cooperation is key. I would prefer it to happen at a higher pace, but having followed UK politics intensely ever since the Brexit vote I am more hopeful now than I have been for a long time.
In other words: Brexit never made sense, so all sensible actions will lead to closer cooperation.
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@pascal_f @phloggen @ProjectFearlessness
Not that I would oppose it, but I don't think the UK will reapply in the next four years. However, I strongly hope that cooperation and trust between the UK and the EU will increase at a rising pace through the period and with a consistent understanding of the threat posed by Russia.
@SuneAuken @pascal_f @phloggen
The good news is there's already a strong, united response to the threat from Russia by the E.U. and the U.K. that is not dependent on the U.K.s membership to the E.U.
So when it comes to the eventual question of the U.K. rejoining, it will be about the usual candidacy questions of alignment and compliance as @phloggen outlined above. -
@SuneAuken @pascal_f @phloggen
The good news is there's already a strong, united response to the threat from Russia by the E.U. and the U.K. that is not dependent on the U.K.s membership to the E.U.
So when it comes to the eventual question of the U.K. rejoining, it will be about the usual candidacy questions of alignment and compliance as @phloggen outlined above.@ProjectFearlessness @pascal_f @phloggen
Absolutely this!
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@phloggen
You can call it politics.A stabil state and proven former member should and could be treated different like new candidates.
To be crystal clear. Having an European coalition of the willing maybe with an open war scenario would make a reunion block absolutely nonsense. Asking for anti aircraft or anti missiles units if they target an UK or EU threat.
Weigh it up with struggles about fishing zones, blocking trucks on the border but welcome tanks n nukes and tell me it is a serious or wise concern to fight it out 10 years, if russia will give us max 4 years to prepare.
That counts for EU and UK citizens in the same way.
@pascal_f @SuneAuken @ProjectFearlessness
I dont think you (and most people in UK) appreciate how much of a stick in the wheel UK has been for EU, pretty much from the very get-go 50 years ago.
Going after tax-evasion ? UK blocked that consistently.
Going after unaccountable off-shore investors ? Guess who blocked that.
Food-safety ? Chemicals ? you name it, UK was solidly on the brake.
And the way the Brexit fiasco unrolled did not help things any.
There are many people in BXL who think that it would be very favourable indeed, if UK got treated as "just another applicant country".
It will take at least a generation before tempers have cooled.
But that cooling wont even start until UK accepts and internalizes, that it threw all it's toys and privileges out of the pram and wont get them back.
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@pascal_f @SuneAuken @ProjectFearlessness
I dont think you (and most people in UK) appreciate how much of a stick in the wheel UK has been for EU, pretty much from the very get-go 50 years ago.
Going after tax-evasion ? UK blocked that consistently.
Going after unaccountable off-shore investors ? Guess who blocked that.
Food-safety ? Chemicals ? you name it, UK was solidly on the brake.
And the way the Brexit fiasco unrolled did not help things any.
There are many people in BXL who think that it would be very favourable indeed, if UK got treated as "just another applicant country".
It will take at least a generation before tempers have cooled.
But that cooling wont even start until UK accepts and internalizes, that it threw all it's toys and privileges out of the pram and wont get them back.
@phloggen @pascal_f @SuneAuken
It's difficult to know how to respond to this. On the one hand, you make some valid points. On the other hand, you add a lot of unhelpfully emotive characterisations of what is a political process. There may be people whose tempers will take a generation to cool, but should they be anywhere near the political decision making process? -
@phloggen @pascal_f @SuneAuken
It's difficult to know how to respond to this. On the one hand, you make some valid points. On the other hand, you add a lot of unhelpfully emotive characterisations of what is a political process. There may be people whose tempers will take a generation to cool, but should they be anywhere near the political decision making process?@ProjectFearlessness @pascal_f @SuneAuken
Does it surprise to you, that there are strong emotions about UK and particular about brexit on the EU side ?
EU is not an "unfeeling machine".
There are a lot of people who are deeply and emotionally invested in "The European Project", both at the political and staff levels of EU, and in the member countries.
Imagine how those people felt, when both the UK's press and politicians (on both sides of the issue!) downright lied about pretty much everything EU up to the referendum ?
Or can you imagine how it felt negotiating what would be life&death details with May's team ?
And then see that team replaced with Johnson's team ?
How could there not be emotions on EU's side of the table ?
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@ProjectFearlessness @pascal_f @SuneAuken
Does it surprise to you, that there are strong emotions about UK and particular about brexit on the EU side ?
EU is not an "unfeeling machine".
There are a lot of people who are deeply and emotionally invested in "The European Project", both at the political and staff levels of EU, and in the member countries.
Imagine how those people felt, when both the UK's press and politicians (on both sides of the issue!) downright lied about pretty much everything EU up to the referendum ?
Or can you imagine how it felt negotiating what would be life&death details with May's team ?
And then see that team replaced with Johnson's team ?
How could there not be emotions on EU's side of the table ?
@phloggen @ProjectFearlessness @pascal_f
Ok, I'm asking you please to kindly step away from this discussion now. I believe it won't lead anywhere good for now. So, if you want to continue please do it outside my thread.
