Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python.
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@SnoopJ @cwebber @jalefkowit They've moved out of engineering and into management - AKA agent wrangling.
It's not management. Management involves interacting with people and getting them to work.
It's neither management nor engineering nor programming: it's deskilled clerical work. Like most clerical work, no one really cares whether it's done right.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber Some of this feels like people getting really used to eating for free at the casino, wondering why anybody bothers to cook anymore. What's going to happen when billionaires stop subsidizing their meals?
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@cwebber @jalefkowit in Armin's case specifically, a not-insubstantial part of the answer seems to be sneering at people who don't use "AI" (including here on Mastodon)
That's not a very charitable read, but I have run out of charity for the way he has performed his enthusiasm to the community
I'm seeing the same thing in some of the Python spaces I inhabit. The users who go all-in on it stop talking about programming.
@SnoopJ @cwebber @jalefkowit Yeah in all honesty he exhausted his charity allotment a couple years ago. In what actually feels like a last attempt at sympathy, among the dude's last takes I paid attention to was him getting sick of first Python, then programming in general, a couple years back. So this path fits, I guess.
Wish he'd gotten into crafting instead. Knit himself a nice hat or something.
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Steve Klabnik also had an interview on lobste.rs. There's a lot in it! It's a cool read! https://alexalejandre.com/programming/steve-klabnik-interview/
And then it gets to the AI part and he's just like "oh I don't write code anymore".
And notably Steve Klabnik has a lot to say about code, but it's *all in the past*.
Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners.
@cwebber What's telling, I think, is that all these people go on about how much they're doing and how great AI is to help them build more *but there's no actual demonstrable stuff being done.* I mean, if AI was some kind of Nx multiplier you'd think we'd be getting N times more actual functionality out of software but mostly it seems like the N multiplier only applies to blog posts about how AI multiplies their programming.
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Steve Klabnik also had an interview on lobste.rs. There's a lot in it! It's a cool read! https://alexalejandre.com/programming/steve-klabnik-interview/
And then it gets to the AI part and he's just like "oh I don't write code anymore".
And notably Steve Klabnik has a lot to say about code, but it's *all in the past*.
Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners.
Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber
My HR guy thinks I'm a fool for criticizing the new "vibe coding bootcamp," and that this is the new reality that he needs to train folks for.
Nope nope nopetty nope. -
Steve Klabnik also had an interview on lobste.rs. There's a lot in it! It's a cool read! https://alexalejandre.com/programming/steve-klabnik-interview/
And then it gets to the AI part and he's just like "oh I don't write code anymore".
And notably Steve Klabnik has a lot to say about code, but it's *all in the past*.
Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners.
@cwebber I guess some people may feel like writing the code is like carrying bricks on a construction site. It's needed for the end result, but eventually they got bored with it and are fine with a machine doing it for them. They don't care about details which will be later covered with plaster.
I'm not judging it, I try to imagine what they may have in their heads.
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@cwebber
My HR guy thinks I'm a fool for criticizing the new "vibe coding bootcamp," and that this is the new reality that he needs to train folks for.
Nope nope nopetty nope.@cwebber
There's certainly a new reality, and use of some AI is sensible as a part of that, but LLMs, AI agents, and vibe coding? Those are problems, not solutions. Serious reliance on any of them will have adverse consequences. -
Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
@cwebber so burn the planet to summarize documents?
Every user of AI is complicit in every impact AI has on the planet. Willing, knowledgeable accomplices.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber i miss the good old days, when people stopped writing code because they burned out and never wanted to go near a computer again
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Steve Klabnik also had an interview on lobste.rs. There's a lot in it! It's a cool read! https://alexalejandre.com/programming/steve-klabnik-interview/
And then it gets to the AI part and he's just like "oh I don't write code anymore".
And notably Steve Klabnik has a lot to say about code, but it's *all in the past*.
Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners.
@cwebber not long until i am the best python writer in the world now. -
Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber Perhaps it is a transitory stage between "I talk with other programmers about programming" and "I only talk to AI chatbots"
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Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
Also, I think using hosted models is strictly unethical for surveillance and energy usage reasons.
It *is* true that there are models you can run locally that are much, much more efficient, and I suspect the energy costs on training them can be dramatically reduced.
I don't use either presently, but using a local model to help you navigate a codebase (as opposed to generating code) is a very different thing, I think. But it's also not what most people are doing!
And hosted AI models, as I said, I think are fully objectionable from an ethics perspective.
Datacenters are an antipattern in the general case. AI datacenters, triply so.
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@cwebber Perhaps it is a transitory stage between "I talk with other programmers about programming" and "I only talk to AI chatbots"
@jalefkowit @cwebber … about chatbots?
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@cwebber What's telling, I think, is that all these people go on about how much they're doing and how great AI is to help them build more *but there's no actual demonstrable stuff being done.* I mean, if AI was some kind of Nx multiplier you'd think we'd be getting N times more actual functionality out of software but mostly it seems like the N multiplier only applies to blog posts about how AI multiplies their programming.
It might just be me but I think there's an aversion to pointing people at projects where these tools were a part of it because some of those people will be jerks, or worse.
When I talk about how I'm using the tools, it's for people who already want to use them and just want some guidance for getting started on their own stuff, not for a general audience. It's not to prove anything, so there's no value in examples that outweighs the personal attacks it would invite.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber this is so dark and depressing
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J jwcph@helvede.net shared this topic
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@jalefkowit @cwebber … about chatbots?
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@gugurumbe I'm not saying people *should* use it for summarize and explore, I'm saying that's a different category of concern, if done with a local model.
However, I'll also point out you were trying to debug LaTeX, which I would argue is a nearly impossible task no matter how many resources are thrown at it
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber maybe they need attention? They need to talk about something -- anything. They talk about what they do, like before.
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Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
@cwebber In reality these machines sabotage the will to learn and the human spirit. People are lessened by using them. And most cannot resist their allure.
