It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
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@plexus yes. It can be found everywhere and those internal enemies or infights are the worst. And it's known. Known by marketing agencies who support or put people into communities to be "the better" foo. It's documented in court cases. In my country, the "green party" was an accident(!) of such an agency which was hired by the arms industry to cover an arms deal. Tell someone about self hosting stuff and they will demand you have Cisco certificates, otherwise your are not "pro enough".
... or offer your selfhosted services to others and prepare being accused of ... well probably trying to spy on them.
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@tiefling oh no, definitely not just techies. It's a very human tendency, "oh you think you're morally superior?"
@plexus I feel that it worsened with big social media platforms like Instagram where you have a cult of selfies showing an artificial facade of pseudo-perfect lifes. All the influencers who drill people that they are not working hard enough (for their muscles, their software, their art etc), if they are not perfect.
Our society got addicted of this turbo-capitalism.
And parts of the left turned it from the muscles into moral stuff
...
Humans are never perfect. Evolution, too. -
It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus yeah this is what led me not only to make big changes in a few organizations I volunteered for, but eventually to become president (pushed by other board members) and then to end up doing allllllll the work... Which led to burnout and hopelessness and now I don't volunteer anymore. Same has happened to various family and friends.
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
this is huge and kills the left
1. there is someone who does something
2. there are people who think "doing something" means appointing themselves boss and micromanaging person 1. even more bizarre, they imagine themselves as somehow more authentic
they aren't doing anything at all except revealing they have no inclination to actually do something
if you are person #1, ignore person #2
if you are person #2, shut up, roll up your sleeves, and get to actual real work
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus Similarly, saying "I'm vegan" is usually met with frothing vitriol about leather belts or consuming honey. Something about it makes people defensive and then they point out your flaws instead of acknowledging their own. https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/vegan-resistance
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this is huge and kills the left
1. there is someone who does something
2. there are people who think "doing something" means appointing themselves boss and micromanaging person 1. even more bizarre, they imagine themselves as somehow more authentic
they aren't doing anything at all except revealing they have no inclination to actually do something
if you are person #1, ignore person #2
if you are person #2, shut up, roll up your sleeves, and get to actual real work
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this is huge and kills the left
1. there is someone who does something
2. there are people who think "doing something" means appointing themselves boss and micromanaging person 1. even more bizarre, they imagine themselves as somehow more authentic
they aren't doing anything at all except revealing they have no inclination to actually do something
if you are person #1, ignore person #2
if you are person #2, shut up, roll up your sleeves, and get to actual real work
> this is huge and kills the left
I often say "we divide ourselves to be conquered".
Commons janitoring is unthankful work. I found that the 90/9/1 rule generally holds in a community, where one procent are truly active, 9% sporadically, and the rest is mostly passive. But I also found that "community" is often overrated. The word is too easily used, while actually just a bunch of people came together on completely different expectations, where expectation mismatch makes 90/9/1 about the best outcome you can get.
I also think those people coming out of the woodwork @benroyce mentions, who are on the sidelines being overly critical, exhibit the social dynamics of a Purity Spiral. A social anti-pattern with very nasty characteristics, that leads to a lose-lose situation for the community as a whole, and only benefits vocal extremists in the in-group. It's a difficult anti-pattern to counteract as the extremist will use any arguments of reason as red meat and turn up the heat.
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus Agree 100%. Everyone is a little bit of a hater, especially if you for some reason make them feel insecure. You could build them the most ethical thing and they rather dis you while partaking the thing they are complaining about. Some culture are way too caught up in the celebration of the individual at the expense of community.
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@plexus Similarly, saying "I'm vegan" is usually met with frothing vitriol about leather belts or consuming honey. Something about it makes people defensive and then they point out your flaws instead of acknowledging their own. https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/vegan-resistance
@tobyjaffey @plexus The best defense is a good offence, and when someone makes you feel morally inferior, when moral purity is your only thing... it's easier to show they aren't pure after all, rather than doing self improvement.
I thankfully don't actually get this much with the stuff I'm working on. People just say thank you, surprisingly. I think it's because everyone I interact with is donating time and data.
Giving people a very easy way to help may reduce the amount of this you get.
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@plexus yeah this is what led me not only to make big changes in a few organizations I volunteered for, but eventually to become president (pushed by other board members) and then to end up doing allllllll the work... Which led to burnout and hopelessness and now I don't volunteer anymore. Same has happened to various family and friends.
@emilyvanartist I'm really sorry that happened. It's very sad how we push the people with good intentions to burn out.
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus I find that overtly and confidently saying "hey this is an unfinished shitty draft project, check it out losers!" Helps nerf some of the audience's perfectionism.
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> this is huge and kills the left
I often say "we divide ourselves to be conquered".
Commons janitoring is unthankful work. I found that the 90/9/1 rule generally holds in a community, where one procent are truly active, 9% sporadically, and the rest is mostly passive. But I also found that "community" is often overrated. The word is too easily used, while actually just a bunch of people came together on completely different expectations, where expectation mismatch makes 90/9/1 about the best outcome you can get.
I also think those people coming out of the woodwork @benroyce mentions, who are on the sidelines being overly critical, exhibit the social dynamics of a Purity Spiral. A social anti-pattern with very nasty characteristics, that leads to a lose-lose situation for the community as a whole, and only benefits vocal extremists in the in-group. It's a difficult anti-pattern to counteract as the extremist will use any arguments of reason as red meat and turn up the heat.
beautifully said
i would add it's fertile ground for the right wing agent provocateur to cosplay left and roleplay at hypercritical perfectionism and start many fires
people who think their toxic idealism is "doing something" need to realize how lazy, easy and shallow their "effort" is. any vaguely proficient troll can mimic it
so real divide and conquer has an easy entrance to slide into the self-divide and conquer you refer to
perfectionism is a hell of a self-own
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
Wow this is really resonating with people, eh? Welcome followers
BTW I organise a really cool conference you should come
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> this is huge and kills the left
I often say "we divide ourselves to be conquered".
Commons janitoring is unthankful work. I found that the 90/9/1 rule generally holds in a community, where one procent are truly active, 9% sporadically, and the rest is mostly passive. But I also found that "community" is often overrated. The word is too easily used, while actually just a bunch of people came together on completely different expectations, where expectation mismatch makes 90/9/1 about the best outcome you can get.
I also think those people coming out of the woodwork @benroyce mentions, who are on the sidelines being overly critical, exhibit the social dynamics of a Purity Spiral. A social anti-pattern with very nasty characteristics, that leads to a lose-lose situation for the community as a whole, and only benefits vocal extremists in the in-group. It's a difficult anti-pattern to counteract as the extremist will use any arguments of reason as red meat and turn up the heat.
At Social coding commons I am investigating different forms of collaboration, like Hedonic peer production. Here collaborative arrangements are sought by looking at what intrinsically motivates people to be proactive participants, and that on an ongoing basis..
https://coding.social/blog/reimagine-social/#hedonic-peer-production
And how through such collaborations an effective affiliation network may shape up on the basis of chaordic organization, and emergence (which can be triggered and steered)..
https://coding.social/blog/reimagine-social/#chaordic-organization
The fediverse with its millions of fedizens is a perfect space where that may take place, with humane technology support on the social network. So that cross-pollination takes can take place at scale, and - who knows - eventually a commons based value economy emerges..
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus In the comments, people correctly point out that this is a very familiar pattern. It still hit me as a good take when I read it. I think it's because of the combination with pointing out that accountability for acting selfishly has completely disappeared, so there's a really sharp contrast now.
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beautifully said
i would add it's fertile ground for the right wing agent provocateur to cosplay left and roleplay at hypercritical perfectionism and start many fires
people who think their toxic idealism is "doing something" need to realize how lazy, easy and shallow their "effort" is. any vaguely proficient troll can mimic it
so real divide and conquer has an easy entrance to slide into the self-divide and conquer you refer to
perfectionism is a hell of a self-own
! There's a Wikipedia page on the Purity Spiral, but its quite meagre in information it provides. The purity spiral benefits opposite extremes, and is a perfect tool for the right as a weapon to sow division and strife. Just throw in the red meat and close the door, then take popcorn and watch the fight ensue..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral
The one-sided description on this page is quite on the mark though:
> "Purity spiral" is a term for a form of infighting between activists and members of victim groups, in which they seek to outdo each other in zealotry. This self-reinforcing feedback loop is sometimes called "moral outbidding".
Ways to counteract the purity spiral involve the whole group being aware of the anti-pattern and be vocal together to bring back reason and calm. But many people often don't dare to counteract the agressive extremist and stay silent, which reinforces the vicious cycle. The extremist wields their own tools, like influence and peer pressure.
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus People who are not in The Arena can STFU!
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus I guess we care about people who do good so we tell about were they fall short while people who don't do good we don't care so we ignore them.
not that it's good and we should support good.
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus The people who come out of the woodwork to attack you and your efforts are doing it for psychological reasons that have little to do with you.
They need to feel better than someone and they're setting lofty goals. They think you're good enough to give them the boost they need, which is why they're on you instead of someone that does nothing for anyone but themselves. It's why they're picking you apart.
They're psychological vampires (demons) and you look yummy.
