Looks like NL might be getting something similar to the Deutschland ticket.
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@th yeah me too. I wanna cycle down the A10... But unless publicly transport dramatically improves, car free Sundays would cause chaos.
@th @quixoticgeek I’d take the opportunity to cycle along the A4 to the A10, around, and back again via the A5.
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A NL ticket is a great idea, I look forward to it coming in. I just hope that when it happens we can learn the necessary lessons, and dramatically increase publicity transport provision across the country. From the tiniest hamlet to the biggest city. Everyone should have access to frequent, cheap, reliable, public transport.
4/4
@quixoticgeek I think that is the reality of rural though. PT will never compete with a car there, the sort of bar you're looking for is "possible", not "frequent", let alone "fast".
I mean, you could, but those buses would run empty most of the time, which only takes one VVDer crying waste before it's all over again, and even then they'd be worse than having your own transport.
Cars don't scale when the density gets too high. PT doesn't scale when the density gets too low.
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@quixoticgeek I think that is the reality of rural though. PT will never compete with a car there, the sort of bar you're looking for is "possible", not "frequent", let alone "fast".
I mean, you could, but those buses would run empty most of the time, which only takes one VVDer crying waste before it's all over again, and even then they'd be worse than having your own transport.
Cars don't scale when the density gets too high. PT doesn't scale when the density gets too low.
@Tubemeister the buses don't need to be full all the time. If they are powered by renewables, who cares about the energy. And cars spend 96% of their life parked, and average a 20% occupancy in the 4% of the time they are used. That's a low bar to compete with.
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@Tubemeister the buses don't need to be full all the time. If they are powered by renewables, who cares about the energy. And cars spend 96% of their life parked, and average a 20% occupancy in the 4% of the time they are used. That's a low bar to compete with.
Pet rant here:
Low carbon energy will be a scarce resource for the foreeeable future. If something is powered by renewables, that means something else is *not* being powered by renewables - hence it is still not OK to waste energy just because it comes from (say) a wind farm.Personally I'm more sympathetic to this line when it comes to public transport than when, for example, I used to hear it from Bitcoin enthusiasts, but a cost/benefit calculation still applies.
Back to your core post, I agree that rural public transport could get dramatically better, but I think it will require more innovation than just running mostly-empty busses around. And I don't think that waiting for that to get that figured out is a good reason to hold up improvement in less rural areas.
Re NL-ticket and capacity: Do NS have enough rolling stock that they are choosing not to run? Or is there a huge investment required to support an increase in demand?
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@Tubemeister the buses don't need to be full all the time. If they are powered by renewables, who cares about the energy. And cars spend 96% of their life parked, and average a 20% occupancy in the 4% of the time they are used. That's a low bar to compete with.
@quixoticgeek @Tubemeister you can drive a completely empty bus given that the general utilization of the line or network is large enough. Also the Netherlands don't have low population density. There are relatively low density areas where the network might cost more per passenger, but you need to serve those places for the robustness of the network. That directly conflicts with the drive towards efficiency.
But having everybody be their own personal transport driver is not efficient either
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@quixoticgeek I was hoping we would also get the car free Sundays again in the landelijk crisisplan, but they are saying "De wereld is wel wat veranderd sinds de jaren 70" https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2611176-landelijk-crisisplan-olie-van-kracht-wat-betekent-dat
@th @quixoticgeek well yes, we're not in a place of worship twice every Sunday anymore. We need to be able to drive to a place where we can buy, spend and consume /s
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Pet rant here:
Low carbon energy will be a scarce resource for the foreeeable future. If something is powered by renewables, that means something else is *not* being powered by renewables - hence it is still not OK to waste energy just because it comes from (say) a wind farm.Personally I'm more sympathetic to this line when it comes to public transport than when, for example, I used to hear it from Bitcoin enthusiasts, but a cost/benefit calculation still applies.
Back to your core post, I agree that rural public transport could get dramatically better, but I think it will require more innovation than just running mostly-empty busses around. And I don't think that waiting for that to get that figured out is a good reason to hold up improvement in less rural areas.
Re NL-ticket and capacity: Do NS have enough rolling stock that they are choosing not to run? Or is there a huge investment required to support an increase in demand?
@swaldman @Tubemeister ns could run more stock. Whether they have enough stock. That's a different question. Possibly.
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@quixoticgeek @Tubemeister you can drive a completely empty bus given that the general utilization of the line or network is large enough. Also the Netherlands don't have low population density. There are relatively low density areas where the network might cost more per passenger, but you need to serve those places for the robustness of the network. That directly conflicts with the drive towards efficiency.
But having everybody be their own personal transport driver is not efficient either
@meeoo @quixoticgeek It is quite efficient for those people and their time and energy, which is why you see so many cars everywhere.
Is it efficient use of resources? Nah, probably not. Of time? Yep. Is that shortsighted? Up to a point, but not entirely.
I could take the bus to work, but it would take me 2 hours. Car's 40 minutes. So I drive.
Were that a one hour train trip door to door I'd take the train. Unless it's loaded to capacity, because ick people.
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@meeoo @quixoticgeek It is quite efficient for those people and their time and energy, which is why you see so many cars everywhere.
Is it efficient use of resources? Nah, probably not. Of time? Yep. Is that shortsighted? Up to a point, but not entirely.
I could take the bus to work, but it would take me 2 hours. Car's 40 minutes. So I drive.
Were that a one hour train trip door to door I'd take the train. Unless it's loaded to capacity, because ick people.
@Tubemeister @meeoo so what do we need to do to provide a train option there ?
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@quixoticgeek @Tubemeister you can drive a completely empty bus given that the general utilization of the line or network is large enough. Also the Netherlands don't have low population density. There are relatively low density areas where the network might cost more per passenger, but you need to serve those places for the robustness of the network. That directly conflicts with the drive towards efficiency.
But having everybody be their own personal transport driver is not efficient either
@meeoo @quixoticgeek Also, it's low density enough once you get outside of the cities. Sure it could be lower still, but it's low enough that making public transport run past "possible" into "convenient enough" is not practical in the current understanding of the term.
The thing is that these musings tend to easily tip over into "all cars must go" type absolutism, and they are just too damn useful to not have them at all.
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@Tubemeister @meeoo so what do we need to do to provide a train option there ?
@quixoticgeek @meeoo Somehow run a train service between two minor cities separated by a military shooting range and a national park.
Which I still wouldn't take, because that hour of door to door will be spent entirely on the last few miles getting to/from the station with no time left for the actual train.
That's just the reality of public transport. With few exceptions, it runs from where you aren't to where you don't want to go, and making up the difference takes so much time.
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@quixoticgeek @meeoo Somehow run a train service between two minor cities separated by a military shooting range and a national park.
Which I still wouldn't take, because that hour of door to door will be spent entirely on the last few miles getting to/from the station with no time left for the actual train.
That's just the reality of public transport. With few exceptions, it runs from where you aren't to where you don't want to go, and making up the difference takes so much time.
@quixoticgeek @meeoo If I _had_ to take public transport to get to my current workplace, I'd have to move. It would drive me insane.
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@quixoticgeek @meeoo Somehow run a train service between two minor cities separated by a military shooting range and a national park.
Which I still wouldn't take, because that hour of door to door will be spent entirely on the last few miles getting to/from the station with no time left for the actual train.
That's just the reality of public transport. With few exceptions, it runs from where you aren't to where you don't want to go, and making up the difference takes so much time.
@Tubemeister @meeoo Apeldoorn and Arnhem? The Veluwe, and the Harskamp range ?
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@Tubemeister @meeoo Apeldoorn and Arnhem? The Veluwe, and the Harskamp range ?
@quixoticgeek @meeoo Yeah, between the Harskamp range and Park Hoge Veluwe.
I don't see it happening, for good reason.
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@swaldman @Tubemeister ns could run more stock. Whether they have enough stock. That's a different question. Possibly.
@quixoticgeek @swaldman NS could certainly run more (or at least longer) trains.
Once you get away from trains though, it goes downhill pretty quickly.
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@meeoo @quixoticgeek It is quite efficient for those people and their time and energy, which is why you see so many cars everywhere.
Is it efficient use of resources? Nah, probably not. Of time? Yep. Is that shortsighted? Up to a point, but not entirely.
I could take the bus to work, but it would take me 2 hours. Car's 40 minutes. So I drive.
Were that a one hour train trip door to door I'd take the train. Unless it's loaded to capacity, because ick people.
@Tubemeister
I agree that the critical variable here is density and some places will never really have competitive public transport.I still think things could be improved in the rural areas by packing the houses in villages rather than spreading them out three to a kilometer. And make the trip to the village center bikeable.
@meeoo @quixoticgeek -
@Tubemeister
I agree that the critical variable here is density and some places will never really have competitive public transport.I still think things could be improved in the rural areas by packing the houses in villages rather than spreading them out three to a kilometer. And make the trip to the village center bikeable.
@meeoo @quixoticgeek@niels @meeoo @quixoticgeek That is the thing with rural though. It has farms in it and those don't pack together.
It is why the US is so fucked when it comes to public transport though. Their suburbia is pretty much Dutch rural. You can't run a bus service against that kind of density, so they're stuck with their cars.
It can probably be better than it is now, absolutely. But I still think you're looking at PT possible, not PT practical enough to get around to ditch the family car.
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@niels @meeoo @quixoticgeek That is the thing with rural though. It has farms in it and those don't pack together.
It is why the US is so fucked when it comes to public transport though. Their suburbia is pretty much Dutch rural. You can't run a bus service against that kind of density, so they're stuck with their cars.
It can probably be better than it is now, absolutely. But I still think you're looking at PT possible, not PT practical enough to get around to ditch the family car.
@Tubemeister
I've been around some pretty rural places in Denmark (less dense than NL) and worst case around half the houses were non-farm. PT for half the people isn't nothing, especially as it creates some independence for those who can't drive.
@meeoo @quixoticgeek -
@Tubemeister
I've been around some pretty rural places in Denmark (less dense than NL) and worst case around half the houses were non-farm. PT for half the people isn't nothing, especially as it creates some independence for those who can't drive.
@meeoo @quixoticgeek@niels @meeoo @quixoticgeek There's room for improvement for sure, especially with some political will so that it's not just a matter of profitable or not...
It would be good if it was at least vaguely practical to get anywhere by PT for those who don't drive, even if it takes longer.
But the "last mile" problem is real in those places, and depending on details might well be a few miles walk from the nearest bus line.
There's a reason a lot of small towns go for a sort of on-call bus instead.
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@niels @meeoo @quixoticgeek There's room for improvement for sure, especially with some political will so that it's not just a matter of profitable or not...
It would be good if it was at least vaguely practical to get anywhere by PT for those who don't drive, even if it takes longer.
But the "last mile" problem is real in those places, and depending on details might well be a few miles walk from the nearest bus line.
There's a reason a lot of small towns go for a sort of on-call bus instead.
@Tubemeister @niels @meeoo the last mile is easy. It's called a bike
and surely it's the last 1.63km...
