I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer.
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@jalefkowit @KentNavalesi This is a question of great and genuine interest to me.
My Apple ][+ was definitely a hard brick wall to somebody who’d never used one. Also, any specific piece of software behaved in extremely limited, extremely consistent ways, so that once somebody had learned to use it, they could continue using it.
My first-gen iPhone was a miraculous device. I could hand it to somebody who’d never used a touch screen or a “smart“ phone of any kind, and they would — without exception! I tried this experiment multiple times! — be able to figure out how to use it just by experimentation and intuition. I really don’t think that’s true of iPhones now. But a current iPhone offers far more capabilities.
Were computers easier or harder in the past? Or just •differently• hard? How? Whose needs have we prioritized? Whose comfort?
@inthehands @jalefkowit @KentNavalesi The latest iOS update really pissed me off. And you're so right about the older apple systems, they were intuitive.
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit I teach future app developers and sysadmins and even for them make it a point to pre-configure the operating system on their laptops in the most distraction-free and unambiguous manner possible, so their early learning experience throws them fewer curve balls.
Something as simple as searching the main application launcher for a program or setting shouldn't also randomly pester users with celebrity news.
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@jalefkowit it's hard enough for people with 40 years of marinating.
@julianlawson @jalefkowit
I used to be marinated it in, then they charged what it was,- an old techie, me. I'm old and a techie -
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit It isn't just us elders (80+ and 76) who need support. Spouse bought a charging base & companion power brick. The quick start guide had not one instruction, only safety precautions. The QR code provided a pictorial of the devices & ports. In my aggravated state I called tech support who emailed links to the real thing! All this so the on-screen device status could be read by their APP! At least the links worked.
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
It does make me wonder if the marketing department prefers being inaccessible to the old. Brand something something.
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit
Because I set my mil up with a PC and then a laptop 20 years ago, I'm the family computer wiz. Unfortunately, after that I've had corporate it people handling all computer stuff so I'm now incredibly out of date. She still calls for help, which I could do, if I had the time to work it out. Just make a laptop that's easy to set up and use. -
I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit I have spent my entire life marinating in it and I am still regularly infuriated by random unnecessary changes to the UI on devices I use that make something that used to be easy much harder, or hide some critical bit of information or configuration. I gave my mother an Android tablet she can do almost everything on so at least I don't have to provide long-distance tech support for her old and glacially slow Windows laptop.
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit
thank you -
I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit @Flux My partner is very much not a computer person, but is exceptionally intelligent; physician and teacher, among other things. Every few months she asks me for help with something that ought to be super basic—things like “how do i copy a file from here to here”—and I have no idea. I have to figure it out all over again because it’s changed, inscrutably, since the last time we had to figure it out. She largely blames her self and I get angry ob her behalf.
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@jalefkowit @Flux My partner is very much not a computer person, but is exceptionally intelligent; physician and teacher, among other things. Every few months she asks me for help with something that ought to be super basic—things like “how do i copy a file from here to here”—and I have no idea. I have to figure it out all over again because it’s changed, inscrutably, since the last time we had to figure it out. She largely blames her self and I get angry ob her behalf.
@jalefkowit @Flux Computers were harder to use in the past in the sense of having a steeper learning curve. But once you knew how to use `cp` it never friggin’ changed. It was a steeper learning curve but there was mastery at the end. A relative plateau of actual skill. Not an endless gradual treadmill of pointless changes and re-learning the basics.
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This is a similar argument I've seen explained in a video about video game UI/mechanics.
It's all made by people in-the-know, who can't really put themselves in the shoes of someone who has never heard of the thing, and thinks a quick "you just click here and voilá!" is enough.
I had to take "PC" (really, DOS and Windows 3.1) classes when I got my first computer. I was terrified of doing something wrong and it'd make the computer explode.
I try to always keep that in mind.
@fruitcakesareyum @jalefkowit i feel like i cant effectively help people with computer issues anymore for a similar reason, ive been marinating in it for so long that i cant put myself in the shoes of a beginner anymore and dont know how to explain anything to someone with sufficiently different experience, even other IT workers who are in different parts of tech
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@imcdowall @jalefkowit This is absolutely not why things suck.
The incentives of capitalism are towards Dark Patterns and systems that lie to you.
@ajroach42 @imcdowall @jalefkowit i can deal with normal well-meaning incompetance, but needing to be on the constant defence against Dark Patterns is exhausting and toxic
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Someone posted a reply saying that computers were harder in the past so it's fine they're hard now, which earned them an instant block. Thanks for identifying yourself as the kind of person I want nothing to do with
@jalefkowit you sound like a massive fuckwit cunt.
(Feel free to block me too!)
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
Prefer paper to computers. Carbon copies too. A party line to email or chat. Computers suck the life out of everything. Can't live without em or with em but life was better all around before them.
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@jalefkowit @Flux Computers were harder to use in the past in the sense of having a steeper learning curve. But once you knew how to use `cp` it never friggin’ changed. It was a steeper learning curve but there was mastery at the end. A relative plateau of actual skill. Not an endless gradual treadmill of pointless changes and re-learning the basics.
@a @jalefkowit @Flux I am not necessarily going to go with "harder to use"; yes, a command line is some effectively arbitrary stuff to memorize but it's not that much stuff. It's possible to memorize. "Where, in seven levels of menus, is the switch to make that thing possible" is not possible to memorize with the same level of effort even if it was any kind of stable.
And so much of it is purely appearance, there's no functional substance to it, it's just sitting there being a source of bugs.
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit They only care about profit and surveillance to train the AI models.
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As well as now being elderly, Mum is dyslexic and she's got a lifetime of suffering from male sexism, where men make her feel stupid for not being as good at a technical thing as she is.
There's sometimes where my partner and I (both female) can get Mum to do stuff or listen where no man can, cos she's not tensed-up for the expected sexism and sneering (or obvious THINKING sneering thoughts badly suppressed).
Glad your neighbour has you. It's not easy.
@NatalyaD @jalefkowit @jtonline I'm at a point where I'm wondering whether it might be beneficial to put Mint on my 2011 MacBook, and give it to MiL.
She already uses Firefox, so all I'd need is to make sure that's prominent and available and signed in to her account. We'll be able to remote into it if anything does awry, and I can run software updates in the background.
It has no battery, but she never moves her current laptop anyway. And it'll be a damn sight more stable than the budget Windows laptop she currently has.
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@jalefkowit I'm at the stage now where I'm starting to think that giving someone a 20 minute primer on Linux then letting them get on eith it has to be easier than constantly fighting with their firewall, antiviral, and shifty OS every week.
Personally, ive found several problems with Win11 recently that require opening Powershell as admin just to do something that used to take a couple of clicks with a mouse - something that the Windows evangelists always said was stopping people moving to Linux.
I'm now seriously considering a 2nd SSD for dual booting into something, possibly Mint.@mancavgeek @jalefkowit https://aus.social/@stib/116117883536605111 ... Anecdotal data on your assumption being correct
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Someone posted a reply saying that computers were harder in the past so it's fine they're hard now, which earned them an instant block. Thanks for identifying yourself as the kind of person I want nothing to do with
@jalefkowit computers were harder in the past?? Maybe in the 1980s when you had to use DOS (or whatever the name was) to run games.. From the first windows it was piece of cake and just working.. Much much better than the dreaded Win11..
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit At the risk of Beetlejuicing xkcd, people who have been “doing computers” for a long time vastly overestimate how familiar people are with computers, even when they attempt to “dumb it down” for the masses. AFFORDANCES ARE STILL IMPORTANT.
People do NOT know what that icon means. They do NOT know that thing is interactable. They do NOT know they can edge-swipe. They do NOT know they can long-press.
Worse, YOUNG people who are “doing computers” underestimate the degradation of eyesight, swiftness, and motor control that is built into the aging process. Any operation that requires fine motor control, eagle eyes, and rock-steady hands with nimble fingers is hostile.
