Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite Is code generation still allowed? For example, annotating a certain class, which automatically generates source code. That is still hand-crafting, right?
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@jaredwhite Is code generation still allowed? For example, annotating a certain class, which automatically generates source code. That is still hand-crafting, right?
@raisondetredev my rule of thumb is, if we were to open a random code file in your repo and point to a random function/object/markup/etc., can you claim you reasoned how to write that text and the final result is how you would expect you would write a text like that? If the answer is Yes, excellent! If the answer is "well, Claude came up with that and after a couple tweaks it seemed fine to me" then it's not hand-crafted.
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
UPDATE: I'm in the thick of a client project atm but thank you thank you to everyone who's been opening up PRs and I'll try to go through the backlog shortly!
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite Mentats-r.us
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite Liked that!
Although I am not a software developer, I have learned Common Lisp recently in 2026:
Not by using LLM or so-called AI...
But by reading books and practicing SBCL by hands on SLIME!Also developed a thermal engineering tool for demonstration:
Not by generating code through LLM...
But by writing equations and brainstorming functions and loops!Because we have natural intelligence!
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite I am not understanding what is meant with "by hand". Using an LLM to check (readonly) for bugs is writing code "by hand" or not?
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite Is an existing github repo that I've made a lot of contributions to (And become head developer of) a valid link for the website? I don't bother with having my own website for things since this is a hobby for me and not a career, and Baystation12's currently the only thing I contribute to that fits the "currently publically used" requirement.
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@jaredwhite I do a mix of both. For my work, I often find AI is useful for tedius tasks, which frees my time up to focus on coming up with solutions to a need/problem or implementing new tools, which I prefer to code by hand because it's fun and rewarding.
IDK if that makes me uneligible to sign since I do use AI or eligible since I do also hand code.
@AgentOrange96 @jaredwhite Similar here: I write a lot of my own code by hand but I do sometimes use LLM code generation when the circumstances call for it (like throwaway scripts or small changes that are easily verifiable).
Given the general tone of these movements, I'd assume by default that we shouldn't add ourselves to the list, that it's only for people who absolutely never use LLMs, unless someone officially confirms otherwise.
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@jaredwhite I am not understanding what is meant with "by hand". Using an LLM to check (readonly) for bugs is writing code "by hand" or not?
@tokenizer I think you answered your own question. If a tool is read-only, then it's not writing anything in your code.
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite Fuck yeeah, count me in. I still code by hand A LOT (sadly, at work is not possible anymore, but in my free time? Yes)
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@AgentOrange96 @jaredwhite Similar here: I write a lot of my own code by hand but I do sometimes use LLM code generation when the circumstances call for it (like throwaway scripts or small changes that are easily verifiable).
Given the general tone of these movements, I'd assume by default that we shouldn't add ourselves to the list, that it's only for people who absolutely never use LLMs, unless someone officially confirms otherwise.
@diazona @AgentOrange96 I'm intentionally not trying to lay out a series of pedantic rules…
Here's a previous response which might clarify: https://indieweb.social/@jaredwhite/116993388938146986
Also it doesn't have to apply to *everything* you might do now or in the future, just that you can point to a tangible software project(s) being used "in production" which can be credibly claimed was hand-coded that you stand by.
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@jaredwhite Is code generation still allowed? For example, annotating a certain class, which automatically generates source code. That is still hand-crafting, right?
I’ll leave the definitive answer to the project owner, but: Code generation by software, in the broad sense, does not necessarily imply something like AI slop.
Historically, almost any web site that wasn’t a completely static site (hand-written HTML and CSS only, identical for all users on a given page) had lots of software-generated code. Think PHP or Java or whatever running on the web server, churning out situation-specific HTML for you and your browser, based on stuff like your login status and site interactions.
That’s automated code generation at scale, and if you hand-write the web server code that does it, I think it should be totally fine here.
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@jaredwhite ooh i love this, will add myself later! :3
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
Funny, i started a poll about banning AI from the fediverse and a lot of excuses to use it dispite the current 90%+
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Funny, i started a poll about banning AI from the fediverse and a lot of excuses to use it dispite the current 90%+
@justbob heh. yeah AI consistently polls negatively across all sorts of spaces and industries. It may be more 50/50 in very commercial/mainstream arenas, but in no way can it be claimed that pro-AI is a majority position (other than among the suits, lol).
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@jaredwhite I assume that you mean without AI?
But with compilers on a computer and not with pen and paper.
What is the main motivation for not using LLMs as part of the development process?
I am asking mainly to understand as I am head of studies at a department of computer science and we are currently getting ready to put more coding with LLMs into courses.
Many reasons. Honestly the main reason for me lately is that it makes coding a miserable experience. Gambling, waiting, retrying. Then reviewing garbage and fixing things and updating agents.md, but the LLM ignores a lot of the that. Then more reviewing large PRs from peers that they didn't review well and so they are full of bugs that look good and need extra scrutiny to find. After correcting them, no one learns anything unlike the mentoring in traditional reviews.
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@jaredwhite I assume that you mean without AI?
But with compilers on a computer and not with pen and paper.
What is the main motivation for not using LLMs as part of the development process?
I am asking mainly to understand as I am head of studies at a department of computer science and we are currently getting ready to put more coding with LLMs into courses.
Why would you integrate coding LLMs into courses? Whatever is the best practice now will be obsolete in a few months. And trying to learn CS by having an AI doing the work is like using a robot to lift weights for you.
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@justbob heh. yeah AI consistently polls negatively across all sorts of spaces and industries. It may be more 50/50 in very commercial/mainstream arenas, but in no way can it be claimed that pro-AI is a majority position (other than among the suits, lol).
Using AI coding agents is a position of every computer programmer that gives them an honest trial, in the last six months.
The progress has been jaw dropping.
Good on you, good luck to you, but asking me not to use them is analogous to asking a carpenter not to use power tools
It is a good analogy, because just like power tools, if you do not know how to construct abstract logical systems, agents will get you in a terrible mess (but won't cut off any fingers)!
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite why not go straight to binary?
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Using AI coding agents is a position of every computer programmer that gives them an honest trial, in the last six months.
The progress has been jaw dropping.
Good on you, good luck to you, but asking me not to use them is analogous to asking a carpenter not to use power tools
It is a good analogy, because just like power tools, if you do not know how to construct abstract logical systems, agents will get you in a terrible mess (but won't cut off any fingers)!
Omish people have NOT been using power tools for centries and they make the best products in the world.
