På dansk skelner vi mellem fæstebønder og livegne.
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Fæstevæsnet betød at bonden kunne få lov til at forpagte jord af godsejeren resten af sit liv, hvis han til gengæld blev ved med at give herremanden mad og knoklede med diverse opgaver for godset (så kaldt hoveri). Som det ofte sker bliver "retten" til noget jord pludselig til en pligt, dvs. nu må du ikke forlade den jord og skal arbejde der resten af dit liv. Det er hvad livegenskab betyder. Og sådan var det fx på Sjælland gennem hele fæstevæsnets tid.
Andre steder kunne fæstebonden opsige kontrakten og flytte - hvis familien havde råd. Så ja, vi er ude i en masse gråzoner af gældsslaveri og præcise termer ender tit med at blive meget lokale. Det gør dem svære at oversætte. Til gengæld kan jeg nu nok stille spørgsmålet mere præcist: Hvordan ville I oversætte det danske ord 'fæstebonde' til engelsk? Fordi 'serf' tror jeg er tættere på en livegen bonde.
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På dansk skelner vi mellem fæstebønder og livegne. Livegne er dem, der ikke måtte flytte fra det gods, de var født på. Hvilken af de to klasser henviser det engelske 'serf' til? Det oversættes lidt tilfældigt til både fæstebonde og livegen forskellige steder. #dansk #oversættelse #feudalisme
"fæstebønder" seems like a compound word. Machine translation says "Feudal Lord" (the ruler of the serfs?)
But it's also machine translated as "serfs" and that's confusing me.
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Andre steder kunne fæstebonden opsige kontrakten og flytte - hvis familien havde råd. Så ja, vi er ude i en masse gråzoner af gældsslaveri og præcise termer ender tit med at blive meget lokale. Det gør dem svære at oversætte. Til gengæld kan jeg nu nok stille spørgsmålet mere præcist: Hvordan ville I oversætte det danske ord 'fæstebonde' til engelsk? Fordi 'serf' tror jeg er tættere på en livegen bonde.
OK now machine translation says "fæstebonde" is "tenant" and "fæstebønder" is "tenant farmers"
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"fæstebønder" seems like a compound word. Machine translation says "Feudal Lord" (the ruler of the serfs?)
But it's also machine translated as "serfs" and that's confusing me.
@futurebird The machine gets it turned upside-down here! Fæstebønder were farming the land of those feudal lords. My translation problem concerns smaller differences between the classes of peasants.
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OK now machine translation says "fæstebonde" is "tenant" and "fæstebønder" is "tenant farmers"
@futurebird This is better. But as I say below, fæstebonde is someone that has a very particular kind of contract with a local lord to lease the land for life.
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@futurebird This is better. But as I say below, fæstebonde is someone that has a very particular kind of contract with a local lord to lease the land for life.
That's not what "tenant farmer" means exactly. Although in the US "tenant farmer" while technically not "vassals of a lord" were functionally not much better off. And I don't think the term would be used for a farmer who simply rented land if they were really independent enough to move freely and break contracts. Another related term is "sharecropper" maybe this is your analog. Sharecropping is considered a rather exploitive form of tenant farming where rent is a portion of the crop.
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That's not what "tenant farmer" means exactly. Although in the US "tenant farmer" while technically not "vassals of a lord" were functionally not much better off. And I don't think the term would be used for a farmer who simply rented land if they were really independent enough to move freely and break contracts. Another related term is "sharecropper" maybe this is your analog. Sharecropping is considered a rather exploitive form of tenant farming where rent is a portion of the crop.
@futurebird Sharecropping could definitely be part of being a fæstebonde, but as far as I know it didn't have to. The 'fee' might also be paid as chores for the lord, e.g. working his fields at particular times of the year. This reminds me of the idea that if you were to describe all these different categories of servitude to someone from, say, Greece 4000 years ago they would probably look at you with confusion and say that all sounds like small variations on slavery.
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@futurebird Sharecropping could definitely be part of being a fæstebonde, but as far as I know it didn't have to. The 'fee' might also be paid as chores for the lord, e.g. working his fields at particular times of the year. This reminds me of the idea that if you were to describe all these different categories of servitude to someone from, say, Greece 4000 years ago they would probably look at you with confusion and say that all sounds like small variations on slavery.
@futurebird Similarly, 'fæstebønder' could theoretically terminate their life-long contract - if they had the money to get a new one. But what if you didn't? (those contracts were made by the farmer investing a sum of money, which they did not get back if terminating it). Then they were practically stuck with forced labor. The grey zone extends from the other side too - as when in some forms of slavery you could get free if you could just pay some 'outstanding' debt to your master.
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J jowek@autonomous.zone shared this topic
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På dansk skelner vi mellem fæstebønder og livegne. Livegne er dem, der ikke måtte flytte fra det gods, de var født på. Hvilken af de to klasser henviser det engelske 'serf' til? Det oversættes lidt tilfældigt til både fæstebonde og livegen forskellige steder. #dansk #oversættelse #feudalisme
@malte efter lidt wikipedia-browsing og nogle ordbogsopslag er min konklusion at "serf" er det samme som en livegen, da de var bundet af jordejerens vilje, og "tenant farmer" virker også dækkende for en fæstebonde da udbytningsforholdet er tilsvarende, omend fæstebonde-begrebet er mere specifikt
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@malte efter lidt wikipedia-browsing og nogle ordbogsopslag er min konklusion at "serf" er det samme som en livegen, da de var bundet af jordejerens vilje, og "tenant farmer" virker også dækkende for en fæstebonde da udbytningsforholdet er tilsvarende, omend fæstebonde-begrebet er mere specifikt
@RBG Det er også nogenlunde min konklusion. Så rejser det spørgsmålet hvorfor serf nogle gange oversættes til fæstebonde.
