Politicians of all stripes conveniently underestimate the public support for green and environmental policies.
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@JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @mpjgregoire Sorry but why should EV infrastructure be publicly funded? E-cars are about proping up the motor industry, not about saving the planet. If we are serious about maintaining a livable planet then wasteful things like cars will have to go.
Over the 20th C our cities were remodeling to make way for cars, now we need to reverse the damage done to make space for people and nature
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire I think this is a progress over perfection thing. In the long term we need to get rid of private vehicles, but realistically starting from the way we've structured the world now the intermediate step needs to be replacing ICEs with EVs and lack of charging infrastructure is holding that back. Not just for personal mobility but vans transporting goods too, there's less of clear path to overhauling goods logistic than transporting people
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@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire I think this is a progress over perfection thing. In the long term we need to get rid of private vehicles, but realistically starting from the way we've structured the world now the intermediate step needs to be replacing ICEs with EVs and lack of charging infrastructure is holding that back. Not just for personal mobility but vans transporting goods too, there's less of clear path to overhauling goods logistic than transporting people
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire But I would definitely like to see that alongside massive investment in public transport, safe cycling infrastructure and rural broadband as well as rent controls in areas close to employment to reduce the amount of commuting that has to happen in the first place
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@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire But I would definitely like to see that alongside massive investment in public transport, safe cycling infrastructure and rural broadband as well as rent controls in areas close to employment to reduce the amount of commuting that has to happen in the first place
@afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
#electriccars are a fake #greenwashing solution, like #carboncapture, or like the danish "climate NGOs" telling people to drop cows and eat pigs instead to reduce CO₂:
> At the moment, an electric car of 60 kilowatt hours (kWh) consuming 20 kilowatt hours per 100 kilometers would have to cover exactly 697,612 km before it is greener than an average petrol car that consumes six liters per 100 kilometers. This is what the Autogids.be website reports.
https://www.ad.nl/auto/bericht-over-vuile-elektrische-auto-klopt-in-de-verste-verte-niet~a03b9a02/?slug_rd=1 -
@afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
#electriccars are a fake #greenwashing solution, like #carboncapture, or like the danish "climate NGOs" telling people to drop cows and eat pigs instead to reduce CO₂:
> At the moment, an electric car of 60 kilowatt hours (kWh) consuming 20 kilowatt hours per 100 kilometers would have to cover exactly 697,612 km before it is greener than an average petrol car that consumes six liters per 100 kilometers. This is what the Autogids.be website reports.
https://www.ad.nl/auto/bericht-over-vuile-elektrische-auto-klopt-in-de-verste-verte-niet~a03b9a02/?slug_rd=1@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I actually support both of those examples as harm reduction measures - I would prefer it if people stopped eating animals altogether and we moved away from private vehicles entirely, but realistically that's not going to happen immediately and until we get there, if people won't give up meat entirely then switching from beef to pork will at least reduce carbon emissions, as will petrol to electric vehicle, and every gram of warming
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@afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
#electriccars are a fake #greenwashing solution, like #carboncapture, or like the danish "climate NGOs" telling people to drop cows and eat pigs instead to reduce CO₂:
> At the moment, an electric car of 60 kilowatt hours (kWh) consuming 20 kilowatt hours per 100 kilometers would have to cover exactly 697,612 km before it is greener than an average petrol car that consumes six liters per 100 kilometers. This is what the Autogids.be website reports.
https://www.ad.nl/auto/bericht-over-vuile-elektrische-auto-klopt-in-de-verste-verte-niet~a03b9a02/?slug_rd=1@pelle @afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire There's a lot wrong with EVs, but that 700k km figure is absolute nonsense. For example, the calculation ascribes huge CO2 emmissions to battery production but none to petrol production. The actual break-even point is already easily below the life mileage of an average car and is only going to come down as the grid gets greener and battery tech improves.
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@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I actually support both of those examples as harm reduction measures - I would prefer it if people stopped eating animals altogether and we moved away from private vehicles entirely, but realistically that's not going to happen immediately and until we get there, if people won't give up meat entirely then switching from beef to pork will at least reduce carbon emissions, as will petrol to electric vehicle, and every gram of warming
@afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
... and that's how you end up supporting sending millions of kids to #gaschambers as a "realistic" "green" policy.
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@pelle @afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire There's a lot wrong with EVs, but that 700k km figure is absolute nonsense. For example, the calculation ascribes huge CO2 emmissions to battery production but none to petrol production. The actual break-even point is already easily below the life mileage of an average car and is only going to come down as the grid gets greener and battery tech improves.
@wav3ydave @afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
yes, but also the "correction" is based on secret numbers and hypotheticals:> The amount of CO2 that Ernst attributes to producing a battery of a modern electric car is ‘at least three times too high’, says Hoekstra. ,,And then I am still very careful. Those kinds of figures are very secret, no producer wants to say anything about it. [...] Hoekstra: ,,In the Netherlands, that number is still above 400. But if only half of the plans of the Climate Agreement are implemented, we will come to 200 over the years, I estimate.”
it is clear that electric cars do not eliminate the emissions; the car kill count i posted before still stands; and 1/4 of all the world's microplastic pollution is from car tyres. we can't talk about any cars being a "green" mode of transport in any sense of that word.
https://theconversation.com/car-tyres-shed-a-quarter-of-all-microplastics-in-the-environment-urgent-action-is-needed-244132 -
@wav3ydave @afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
yes, but also the "correction" is based on secret numbers and hypotheticals:> The amount of CO2 that Ernst attributes to producing a battery of a modern electric car is ‘at least three times too high’, says Hoekstra. ,,And then I am still very careful. Those kinds of figures are very secret, no producer wants to say anything about it. [...] Hoekstra: ,,In the Netherlands, that number is still above 400. But if only half of the plans of the Climate Agreement are implemented, we will come to 200 over the years, I estimate.”
it is clear that electric cars do not eliminate the emissions; the car kill count i posted before still stands; and 1/4 of all the world's microplastic pollution is from car tyres. we can't talk about any cars being a "green" mode of transport in any sense of that word.
https://theconversation.com/car-tyres-shed-a-quarter-of-all-microplastics-in-the-environment-urgent-action-is-needed-244132@pelle @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I don't think anyone's arguing that evs are a "green" or good thing, just les damaging than petrol cars, and our disagreement is over whether it's worth going for a little less damage now or whether it's possible to go for the complete elimination of damage immediately
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@pelle @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I don't think anyone's arguing that evs are a "green" or good thing, just les damaging than petrol cars, and our disagreement is over whether it's worth going for a little less damage now or whether it's possible to go for the complete elimination of damage immediately
@afewbugs @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
the question is: less damage than what?if i hit you in the face with a baseball bat, i could argue that it caused much less damage than the gun i was about to shoot you with, so you should be thankful to me that i reduced harm to you.
of course this is absurd, because it is unnecessary for me to attack you in the first place — just like it is unnecessary to eat animals.
in that way #lesserevilism / #lessharm / #lessmeat can lead to acceptance of a lot of evil, harm and meat eating.
last time i listened to a speech by someone from #effectivealtruism, she did a long presentation to explain how they could reduce harm by spending an awful lot of money on donating farming equipment to fish farms.
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@afewbugs @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
the question is: less damage than what?if i hit you in the face with a baseball bat, i could argue that it caused much less damage than the gun i was about to shoot you with, so you should be thankful to me that i reduced harm to you.
of course this is absurd, because it is unnecessary for me to attack you in the first place — just like it is unnecessary to eat animals.
in that way #lesserevilism / #lessharm / #lessmeat can lead to acceptance of a lot of evil, harm and meat eating.
last time i listened to a speech by someone from #effectivealtruism, she did a long presentation to explain how they could reduce harm by spending an awful lot of money on donating farming equipment to fish farms.
@pelle @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire okay I'll take your mildly threatening analogy and work with it.
If you were determined to harm me, I would rather you hit me in the face with a baseball bat than shot me, because in one scenario I would be injured and in one I would be dead, so yes I would support a harm reduction approach. Where I hope this is serving as a climate behaviour analogy and not an actual threat is in understanding why you wanted to harm me,
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@pelle @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire okay I'll take your mildly threatening analogy and work with it.
If you were determined to harm me, I would rather you hit me in the face with a baseball bat than shot me, because in one scenario I would be injured and in one I would be dead, so yes I would support a harm reduction approach. Where I hope this is serving as a climate behaviour analogy and not an actual threat is in understanding why you wanted to harm me,
@pelle @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire whether there was any scope to reduce that desire and what the barriers to doing so were, and most importantly how confident I can be in my estimation of all those values. As I cannot be 100% confident of my estimation I will favour taking both approaches.
Again, really hoping this is an analogy and not an actual threat I'm dealing with here, and would appreciate clarification
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@pelle @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire whether there was any scope to reduce that desire and what the barriers to doing so were, and most importantly how confident I can be in my estimation of all those values. As I cannot be 100% confident of my estimation I will favour taking both approaches.
Again, really hoping this is an analogy and not an actual threat I'm dealing with here, and would appreciate clarification
@afewbugs
i mean, for people who would like to be knocked in the head to reduce harm, i'm always there to help.for the people who advocate #gaschamber as #harmreduction, i don't have the full equipment but i believe plastic bags work just as well.
i am saying this in jest of course, but the sad truth is that the threats from the #gaschamber advocates are genuine and deadly.
i am thankful that you eat #vegan but i am always astounded when someone finds it "imposing" to ask others to eat #plantbased while genuinely considering gassing kids as #harmreduction.
i believe that is what #stevebest would describe as #vegan #stockholmsyndrome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHDTZniuzyc
