As I posted recently, the continuned growth of mastodon.social is putting the #Fediverse in danger (here's why: https://fedi.tips/its-a-really-bad-idea-to-join-a-big-server/).
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@virtuous_sloth @FediTips Yeah, I have a reply about this somewhere downthread. Searching up the email is a (high-friction but workable) individual solution if someone has forgotten their server and is willing to put a few minutes of effort into regaining access, it's not a good solution to the overall problem of people not remebering their server. At the very least it's a hassle each time.
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@julian @FediTips @andypiper it may be easier if you can connect an instance to existing user databases, like Google Workspace, Slack, or Discord.
@evan @FediTips @andypiper 100% for setting up small servers. The Fediverse is almost certainly best off with lots of fairly small and fairly socially cohesive servers.
There is, however, a mismatch between the suggestion to set up a server and the audience of people who have heard about Mastodon somewhere and are willing to download an app to give it a shot. We're veering close to the “the Fediverse is built for tech-savvy people” kind of elitism that I'm personally hoping we can grow out of.
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@thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn I'm personally also quite intrigued by the idea of treating the default as a “tutorial server”. Video games manage to design sandbox areas that anyone can use to try out new toys, but that naturally get boring after a while unless you leave them and explore. I think trying to translate that concept to fedi servers could be fruitful, albeit difficult.
@UlrikeHahn' has also brought up the idea of something similar to a "tutorial server" with limited functionality ... it's intriguing. one challenge is how to get enough interesting stuff there for people to decide it's worth exploring further. If it's just a tutorial that people have to go through to get to the next stage, then the risk is that unless folks are really really committed they're likely to lose interest.
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@FediTips also Mastodon could implement a service to try and discover your server address if you forgot it like Pixelfed has.
You can discover your server address by checking your emails, everyone who signs up gets an email from their server
If necessary you could search the emails for "mastodon".
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@FediTips i wonder how we balance this with the "average user" (yes, i'm looking at you, tech-illiterate aunt sally) not knowing what a server is, how to find one, or what choosing one entails.
i only bring this up as mastodon (the software) wishes to become a more widespread social platform/solution versus the competition, so this type of first-experience UX should be considered carefully
to be clear, i don't think we should push users towards mastodon.social – but how is that done elegantly?
None of the UX needs to change at all, they just need to change the server they are putting on the front page of the site and app.
Instead of promoting mastodon.social they have a reliable third party server that has a good track record that's similar or better than mastodon.social.
For a user the UX would all be exactly the same, but the growth would be spread out on more servers.
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@UlrikeHahn' has also brought up the idea of something similar to a "tutorial server" with limited functionality ... it's intriguing. one challenge is how to get enough interesting stuff there for people to decide it's worth exploring further. If it's just a tutorial that people have to go through to get to the next stage, then the risk is that unless folks are really really committed they're likely to lose interest.
@thenexusofprivacy @UlrikeHahn @julian
"Rotating the default doesn't seem to me like it would address the :"good experience" aspect of the problem."
It's not about that at all, it's not about UI or UX.
The problem is about what happens to the network if it centralises. There are many important reasons why the Fediverse is decentralised: https://fedi.tips/why-is-the-fediverse-on-so-many-separate-servers/
All these reason get squashed if mastodon.social becomes over 50% of the network. The network would eventually "enshittify".
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The continued growth of mastodon.social is putting the #Fediverse in danger (here's why: https://fedi.tips/its-a-really-bad-idea-to-join-a-big-server/).
The quickest, easiest and most effective way to solve this would be if the official apps & website stopped promoting mastodon.social, and instead promoted a rotating selection from a pool of reliable servers with solid track records.
If you're comfortable using Github, please give thumbs up to all these:
- https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon-android/issues/568
- https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon-ios/issues/1023
- https://github.com/mastodon/joinmastodon/issues/1052@FediTips any servers for artits who don't like Nazis and love human rights and are neurodivergent but also like tech jusr not AI?
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@FediTips any servers for artits who don't like Nazis and love human rights and are neurodivergent but also like tech jusr not AI?
You can find lots of well-run reliable creative servers listed at https://fedi.garden/tag/art-crafts-and-creativity
For example https://sunny.garden is good
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@evan @FediTips @andypiper 100% for setting up small servers. The Fediverse is almost certainly best off with lots of fairly small and fairly socially cohesive servers.
There is, however, a mismatch between the suggestion to set up a server and the audience of people who have heard about Mastodon somewhere and are willing to download an app to give it a shot. We're veering close to the “the Fediverse is built for tech-savvy people” kind of elitism that I'm personally hoping we can grow out of.
We need to give options for every kind of person who wants to join.
The option this thread is about is the kind of person who just wants to be told one server to sign up on, which is why the official apps and site currently say "sign up on mastodon.social".
All Masto gGmbH have to do is swap out mastodon.social and insert a server from a pool of reliable servers with equal or better track records.
That would then serve people who just want to be told one server.
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@virtuous_sloth @FediTips Yeah, I have a reply about this somewhere downthread. Searching up the email is a (high-friction but workable) individual solution if someone has forgotten their server and is willing to put a few minutes of effort into regaining access, it's not a good solution to the overall problem of people not remebering their server. At the very least it's a hassle each time.
"Like if the default sign-up email contained "Mastodon" and when server admins customized it, there would naturally be a low chance they'd edit it radically enough to remove that word."
If you signed up to a Mastodon server, the email will contain the word "mastodon" even if the server is called something else.
"At the very least it's a hassle each time."
How often will people forget the name of their server?
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@julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn
The notion of "server "is unknown for a random new user. How could they remember its name ?@prunelier @julian @UlrikeHahn
The new user will learn, the same way they learn the integral features on Twitter or Tiktok or Instagram or whatever. Those social networks are always adding new features that people didn't know before, but people get used to them.
Servers are an integral part of why the Fediverse exists. Without them, the Fedi has no reason to exist at all. It's better to explain them instead of trying to centralise the network.
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@evan @FediTips @andypiper 100% for setting up small servers. The Fediverse is almost certainly best off with lots of fairly small and fairly socially cohesive servers.
There is, however, a mismatch between the suggestion to set up a server and the audience of people who have heard about Mastodon somewhere and are willing to download an app to give it a shot. We're veering close to the “the Fediverse is built for tech-savvy people” kind of elitism that I'm personally hoping we can grow out of.
@julian @FediTips @andypiper I agree. I wonder if there's an onboarding flow that's like, "First, find out if you already have a server you can be a part of. Second, set up a server for a group you're in (either by hosting it yourself or getting one from a hosting provider). Lastly, try one of these..."
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@julian @FediTips @andypiper I agree. I wonder if there's an onboarding flow that's like, "First, find out if you already have a server you can be a part of. Second, set up a server for a group you're in (either by hosting it yourself or getting one from a hosting provider). Lastly, try one of these..."
I run a site at https://growyourown.services to help and encourage non-technical people to create their own instances through managed hosting servers (which don't require any tech knowledge nowadays). It would be great if more people did this
But I'm not sure how this helps prevent centralisation caused by the "sign up with mastodon.social" button? By definition the people who click on that are the ones who don't click on "Pick another server".
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@thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn Yes, exactly on point. The best case scenario for the Fediverse is a rough alignment of servers with cohesive communities, because if the community matches the infrastructure, that's good for moderation, long-term stability, and the day-to-day experience of each individual. A default server can't provide that.
Ideally, everyone would join fedi by being invited to a well-moderated small-to-medium server by a friend.
@julian @thenexusofprivacy @UlrikeHahn
"Ideally, everyone would join fedi by being invited to a well-moderated small-to-medium server by a friend."
That is what I am trying to encourage on https://fedi.garden for example, which are all well-moderated small-to-medium servers.
But the people who visit such sites aren't going to be the ones who click on "Sign up on mastodon.social". It's that button that is causing the problem this thread is about.
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p.s. To avoid repetition of replies:
-If people forget name of server they signed up on, it's written on the email they received when they signed up.
-Mastodon.social is in no way more reliable or easier than other servers with similar or better track records.
-If Mastodon gGmbH does not trust anyone else to run a server properly, why should anyone else trust Mastodon gGmbH to run a server properly? "Trust me, but I won't trust you" is a terrible argument in a collaborative project.
p.p.s. Thanks for all the replies, they are interesting and thought-out but many seem to be addressing slightly different topics?
This particular problem of centralisation is being caused by a very specific thing: the "Sign up on mastodon.social" button on the official apps and official site.
If we want to stop this wave of centralisation, we need to focus on changing this button so that it no longer directs people to mastodon.social.
The Fediverse is unique and precious, let's not lose it.
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@thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn I'm personally also quite intrigued by the idea of treating the default as a “tutorial server”. Video games manage to design sandbox areas that anyone can use to try out new toys, but that naturally get boring after a while unless you leave them and explore. I think trying to translate that concept to fedi servers could be fruitful, albeit difficult.
@julian @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips very much yes to the tutorial server idea (I think of it in terms of a paddling pool…) and the idea would very much be you get funnelled out if it once you’ve got a basic understanding of what choosing a server actually entails and to what extent it does (and doesn’t) matter.
(but if all we have is a default server then it would still be better they rotated, and default servers should also be exceptionally well moderated to qualify…)
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@julian @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips very much yes to the tutorial server idea (I think of it in terms of a paddling pool…) and the idea would very much be you get funnelled out if it once you’ve got a basic understanding of what choosing a server actually entails and to what extent it does (and doesn’t) matter.
(but if all we have is a default server then it would still be better they rotated, and default servers should also be exceptionally well moderated to qualify…)
@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy
Currently they are presented with these two buttons:
"Sign up on mastodon.social"
"Pick another server"Funnelling people into a tutorial they didn't ask for, and then forcing them to leave the server they asked to sign up on... it doesn't seem like a good idea? Surely it will confuse and annoy people?
If there is a tutorial make it appear on whatever server they choose and make it optional. You don't need everyone on one server to do tutorials.
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@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy
Currently they are presented with these two buttons:
"Sign up on mastodon.social"
"Pick another server"Funnelling people into a tutorial they didn't ask for, and then forcing them to leave the server they asked to sign up on... it doesn't seem like a good idea? Surely it will confuse and annoy people?
If there is a tutorial make it appear on whatever server they choose and make it optional. You don't need everyone on one server to do tutorials.
@FediTips @julian @thenexusofprivacy Here is the reasoning behind a tutorial server/paddling pool. Servers matter, they do matter and they should matter and I think we all, in this discussion, agree that fedi’s strength is the ability to build around communities. So we should, I think, start by telling people that; not by telling them they need to make a choice that doesn’t matter when it does. If you already know what a server is you should of course have that option “Pick your own server”. The other option would be “Get started here and pick one later”.
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@FediTips @julian @thenexusofprivacy Here is the reasoning behind a tutorial server/paddling pool. Servers matter, they do matter and they should matter and I think we all, in this discussion, agree that fedi’s strength is the ability to build around communities. So we should, I think, start by telling people that; not by telling them they need to make a choice that doesn’t matter when it does. If you already know what a server is you should of course have that option “Pick your own server”. The other option would be “Get started here and pick one later”.
@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy
It's fine to have an optional tutorial, that would be a great resource.
“Pick another server”
“Get started here and pick one later”These would be good options, but so many people say they just want to get started straight away without any picking, that they would demand a "Sign up on (XXXXX)" option too.
So this would give 3 options:
"Sign up on (featured rotating server from reliable pool)"
"Pick another server"
"Tutorial server to help you choose" -
And actually I'd go farther and say it might be better to focus on community-led alternatives to commercial social networks in general -- not just fedi. For people looking for a US-focused, Black-centric microblogging experience, Blacksky might well be the best option today (and as Northsky becomes more real, that's likely to be a good option for a North American-focused 2SLGBTQIA+-centric microblogging experience). For people looking for a Palestinian-friendly photo/video-sharing app, Upscrolled might be a good option even though it's not decentralized.
I feel that its worth pointing out in these conversations that nobody starts new servers anymore. Its hard (to measure kinda impossible now since fedidb removed the 'first seen' statistic, and server age does not show up in nodeinfo), but virtually no new servers have been started since 2024 that have gotten over 1k mau, I think it was like 4 total (this spring when the stat was still available)
