"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
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You speak from a position of freedom and safety — a privilege guaranteed by the sacrifices of others who risked their lives in your place. I hope you never have to experience people talking down to you when you're defending yourself against those who want to exterminate you.
@Kristian_Kiehling I speak from a position of having warmongerers as leaders who proclaim there being no other option whenever a war in their interests break out, making me pity those who actually believe it.
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@ErikUden Ah yes, the imperialist take. All you have to do is to submit yourself to the empire to avoid this inconvenience.
Give up your home, let the empire torture you to death (Bucha, for example https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/04/04/russias-bucha-facts-versus-the-evidence/ ).
Don't worry about your kids, they will be separated and re-trained into more soldiers for the next war.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/EUR5061362022ENGLISH.pdf
https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/humanitarian-research-lab-yale-school-public-health-russias-systematic-program-re-education-adoption-ukraines-children-enruukI wish you never have to experience anything like this yourself.
@Kristian_Kiehling@makdaam @Kristian_Kiehling we will all have to experience war unless we start understanding what lead to it, a position you seem to be very avoidant of.
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@FediThing @Kristian_Kiehling well, I guess by your logic there was nothing that could be done. Fascinating, the war was hence inevitable! How odd that you proclaim to be on the side of action when spreading the opposite.
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@Kristian_Kiehling
Negotiating an end to this shitty war before more people have to die would not be "doing nothing". But this hasn't been attempted since April 2024.Please outline your totally realistic alternative? Is it to fight until the unconditional surrender of Russia and collapse of its government? In your dreams.
@goatchurch @Kristian_Kiehling Ukraine will fight until Russia leaves Ukraine and stops killing Ukrainians, right? Plus, it is a lie that Ukraine hasn’t attempted peace since April 2024.
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@morton I understand everything you say, but still don't get how that would mean that NATO provoked the war. I am missing the possible chain-of-thought here. I understand that you also don't think this is true, but I wouldn't understand why that is even a line that resonates with (Western) people.
@erwinrossen It’s simple. American tanks told me to read a book by an American that explains my country’s history to me—and does so better than authors from my own country. After all, what could we savages possibly know? Russia is like a wild animal; it has its own territory, and you shouldn't provoke it.
That sense of intellectual and moral superiority is what drives this way of thinking.
Greetings from the country where—according to English nationalists—swans are killed and eaten. We have dragons, too. -
@subrealz @Kristian_Kiehling
Je crois que c est un déraciné bref probablement en "conflit Paternel "
Pathologie très rependue en France avec nos rapatriés de ci de là...
Quand les papas sont laches en général
@Canalbaobab @subrealz @Kristian_Kiehling Well, the translation of the above doesn't make sense.
Maybe the original same. -
@Kristian_Kiehling I speak from a position of having warmongerers as leaders who proclaim there being no other option whenever a war in their interests break out, making me pity those who actually believe it.
It is embarrassing that people who are politically active in Germany cannot bring themselves to name the real warmongers — the russians who are waging the largest genocidal war in Europe since 1945 — instead slandering the German government in a perpetrator-victim reversal. I really hope that you will never experience russian occupation and forced russification first-hand, as my family has for generations.
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It is embarrassing that people who are politically active in Germany cannot bring themselves to name the real warmongers — the russians who are waging the largest genocidal war in Europe since 1945 — instead slandering the German government in a perpetrator-victim reversal. I really hope that you will never experience russian occupation and forced russification first-hand, as my family has for generations.
@Kristian_Kiehling The German government is in no war in Europe to date the victim. I'm capable of calling all warmongerers as such and don't shy away from pointing out the Russian invasion as obvious aggression, yet my analysis doesn't stop there. Unlike you, I want to understand aggressors and the conditions that lead to war in order to prevent it, instead of just repeating over and over again that they are aggressors, as if that's a universal rule.
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@FediThing @Kristian_Kiehling well, I guess by your logic there was nothing that could be done. Fascinating, the war was hence inevitable! How odd that you proclaim to be on the side of action when spreading the opposite.
@FediThing I guess my question is: where do I oppose the statements you've made? Whenever this discussion happens people just repeat the obvious back to me as if I disagree simply because I don't believe more weapons exports lead to peace (because they obviously don't).
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@Kristian_Kiehling The German government is in no war in Europe to date the victim. I'm capable of calling all warmongerers as such and don't shy away from pointing out the Russian invasion as obvious aggression, yet my analysis doesn't stop there. Unlike you, I want to understand aggressors and the conditions that lead to war in order to prevent it, instead of just repeating over and over again that they are aggressors, as if that's a universal rule.
@ErikUden Preventing war is a different and less complex issue than being attacked and told, to lay down weapons to let the aggressor take the country (not the people) @Kristian_Kiehling
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@ErikUden Preventing war is a different and less complex issue than being attacked and told, to lay down weapons to let the aggressor take the country (not the people) @Kristian_Kiehling
@Bugspriet @Kristian_Kiehling and where have I done or supported the latter?
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@goatchurch @Kristian_Kiehling Impressive how people can just ignore all facts and pretend Ukraine isn't constantly trying to negotiate an end. There was even the letter from Zelenskyy to Putin just a few months ago.
It would be good if more people realized that the US and the UK are the main cause for countries like Iran to reach for nukes now. Iran even brings up the Budapest memorandum themselves for doing so.
So, this is what trying to negotiate an end to the war looks like, does it?
"Observers suggested the letter had been written with Ukraine’s allies in mind and with the objective of needling Putin."
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"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling
Wow, du hast wirklich eine beachtliche Menge Blockempfehlungen angelockt.
Danke dafür, das spart Zeit und Mühe.
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"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling Alternatively you can get the truth about USA weakening Russia and Germany from George Friedman (Stratfor), all part of a plan, video from 2015:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLu_yyz3tc&t=3230s -
@Kristian_Kiehling The German government is in no war in Europe to date the victim. I'm capable of calling all warmongerers as such and don't shy away from pointing out the Russian invasion as obvious aggression, yet my analysis doesn't stop there. Unlike you, I want to understand aggressors and the conditions that lead to war in order to prevent it, instead of just repeating over and over again that they are aggressors, as if that's a universal rule.
@ErikUden
You are either wilfully or unwittingly ignoring the facts. The russians have repeatedly sabotaged German state elections, the information space, and various civilian and military infrastructure.The russians indeed consider themselves to be at war with NATO, of which we are a member. As for the reasons behind russian aggression, one only needs to acknowledge russian imperialism, which did not start with the current leader and will not end with him, either.
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"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling Time to block that @Canalbaobab "Automated" account where at the least they are just rude with replying in what seems to be French on an English language topic/post.
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@Kristian_Kiehling Time to block that @Canalbaobab "Automated" account where at the least they are just rude with replying in what seems to be French on an English language topic/post.
@Kristian_Kiehling @Canalbaobab@mastodon.social OK, seems the Mastodon app was improved in that you can't straight away block an account, but can straight away block a whole server instance.....
OK, reported the account, the I got the block option. -
@FediThing @Kristian_Kiehling well, I guess by your logic there was nothing that could be done. Fascinating, the war was hence inevitable! How odd that you proclaim to be on the side of action when spreading the opposite.
@ErikUden No. It wasn't inevitable.
Let's focus on the German contribution to this specific conflict. In 2005 Gerhard signed the NS1 deal. Angela didn't want to mess with a profitable deal, so after her veto in Bucharest Russia invaded Georgia.
That would have been a good time to start solving issues through diplomacy. But Germany didn't listen to Georgia, Ukraine or Baltic states, Poland and Czechia. Profits/savings from fossil fuels were more important.
@FediThing @Kristian_Kiehling -
@makdaam @Kristian_Kiehling we will all have to experience war unless we start understanding what lead to it, a position you seem to be very avoidant of.
@ErikUden Maybe puffed up truisms like above work on other politicians or in US style debate clubs. Also a veiled ad-personam in second answer already? Weak.
Knowing the root problem is the first step but not enough, next you have to figure out a solution and then action it. We're way ahead of you here so I'm asking you to stop westsplaining over generational lived experiences of people neighboring an empire and maybe to try to listen instead.
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So, this is what trying to negotiate an end to the war looks like, does it?
"Observers suggested the letter had been written with Ukraine’s allies in mind and with the objective of needling Putin."
@goatchurch @Kristian_Kiehling I suggest reading the actual letter and the various communications that took place before and after that.
A statement like "Observers suggested the letter had been written with Ukraine’s allies in mind and with the objective of needling Putin." is meaningless.
We simply have the fact that one country is continuously trying to negotiate while the other is not even considering this.
Any security guarrantuees that go beyond the Budapest memorandum, which would be essential to end renewed hostilities, as the US and UK showed that they won't intervene despite their signature, are being dismissed beforehand.Anybody suggesting to negotiate at this point is either promoting Russian propaganda or uninformed about what has already been put on paper before and been/being attempted with regards to negotiations up to now.
