I think #Signal seems to be a really good app.
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@ben @leanderlindahl I'm trying to avoid American products as much as possible. Signal uses infrastructure from AWS, GCE and Azure.
This way I'm looking for a easy alternative (non-tech) to Signal. And @delta looks really good.@benjamim @leanderlindahl @delta Delta Chat is true freedom
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@rraggl @delta @matrix @threemaapp @briar That's great. How many of your friends have you persuaded to pay for the app or learn about decentralisation?
No one is looking for anonymity. People want privacy at best
@Distante @delta @matrix @threemaapp @briar
Working on it... One by one, bit by bit. It's not a one time action, it's a process.
And I am more than willing to pay the fee if they prefer Threema.
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I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl well yes, but as they say: the perfect is the enemy of the good. If we were to exclude anyone who relies on AWS (even European alternatives to US tech giants), we'd have precious little to nothing left.
It's a net positive to migrate from Whatsapp to Signal so that counts as a win in my book. Let's redirect our efforts to other apps/fields where switching is easier/more urgent. For example, I just today found out that there's a Nürnberg-based software firm that makes a drop-in replacement for MS Office. Yeah, https://www.softmaker.de/ is closed source and Libreoffice is not, but Softmaker's suite has basically zero switching cost and LibreOffice works, but it UI is stuck in the 90s.
Or take Wero. I'd be so happy if we could establish it as a PayPal alternative
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@leanderlindahl well yes, but as they say: the perfect is the enemy of the good. If we were to exclude anyone who relies on AWS (even European alternatives to US tech giants), we'd have precious little to nothing left.
It's a net positive to migrate from Whatsapp to Signal so that counts as a win in my book. Let's redirect our efforts to other apps/fields where switching is easier/more urgent. For example, I just today found out that there's a Nürnberg-based software firm that makes a drop-in replacement for MS Office. Yeah, https://www.softmaker.de/ is closed source and Libreoffice is not, but Softmaker's suite has basically zero switching cost and LibreOffice works, but it UI is stuck in the 90s.
Or take Wero. I'd be so happy if we could establish it as a PayPal alternative
@timon in what way does switching to Signal promote European digital sovereignty? It does not.
I'm fine with you liking the app, promoting the app and pointing out it has amazing encryption and UX. That still doesn't promote European independence in the tech sector. You're free use it as much as you want.
But don't brand it as European digital sovereignty. It means users switch to another US product instead of a European product and European products in that space don't grow the user base.
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@timon in what way does switching to Signal promote European digital sovereignty? It does not.
I'm fine with you liking the app, promoting the app and pointing out it has amazing encryption and UX. That still doesn't promote European independence in the tech sector. You're free use it as much as you want.
But don't brand it as European digital sovereignty. It means users switch to another US product instead of a European product and European products in that space don't grow the user base.
@leanderlindahl you're right of course, sorry. I came at this from a "anything's better than supporting US tech giants" point of view. My primary concern is not with European digital sovereignty.
If that's what you're after, maybe give Matrix a shot. I doubt it'll be widely adopted as a whatsapp replacement, but it is a very mature E2E chat and call protocol and decentralized network.
Germany is currently adapting it for use in its Bundesmessenger (https://element.io/de/matrix-in-germany/projects/bundesmessenger) for administrative use and the French have already rolled it out to 600k civil servants: https://media.ccc.de/v/matrix-conf-2025-74487-matrix-french-gov-deployment-opening-a-private-federation-securely
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I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl
In some ways not as good but there is Threema, xmpp, and Matrix. -
@leanderlindahl
Yes.
A good, secure and simple german alternative to WhatsApp and Signal is #deltachat
https://delta.chat/
They are in the fediverse too:
@delta#SIGNAL?
Decentralization, as well as FOSS, is a mandatory key feature, it's not negotiable.
Together they impose not only a European but a new world, ordered by aGI = actuall General Indepenence. -
@leanderlindahl you're right of course, sorry. I came at this from a "anything's better than supporting US tech giants" point of view. My primary concern is not with European digital sovereignty.
If that's what you're after, maybe give Matrix a shot. I doubt it'll be widely adopted as a whatsapp replacement, but it is a very mature E2E chat and call protocol and decentralized network.
Germany is currently adapting it for use in its Bundesmessenger (https://element.io/de/matrix-in-germany/projects/bundesmessenger) for administrative use and the French have already rolled it out to 600k civil servants: https://media.ccc.de/v/matrix-conf-2025-74487-matrix-french-gov-deployment-opening-a-private-federation-securely
@timon Thx
Timon that's very kind of you.But I'm not asking for advice. I think I am aware of (almost) all the alternatives. I wanted to point out that Signal is US software built in Mountain View, California.
Switching people to that, won't strengthen European digital independence. It will expend the precious "switching capital" of users who are enthusiastic about digital sovereignty towards US software and prevent European alternatives from getting new users and grow.
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@timon Thx
Timon that's very kind of you.But I'm not asking for advice. I think I am aware of (almost) all the alternatives. I wanted to point out that Signal is US software built in Mountain View, California.
Switching people to that, won't strengthen European digital independence. It will expend the precious "switching capital" of users who are enthusiastic about digital sovereignty towards US software and prevent European alternatives from getting new users and grow.
@leanderlindahl @timon agreed, switching to any kind of USamerican product as "alternative" is nonsensical. Threema is a messanger based in CH & a good alternative.
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@utopiarte
Interesting, thanks for shareing -
@utopiarte
Interesting, thanks for shareing
thxA work in progress, originated somewhere in this conversation and long before.
Actually, instead of procrastinating here, doing some showOff, the#freePlane bee in the task bar screems for attention!
( .. slips off, trying to leave the relentless fediInteraction ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ )
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thxA work in progress, originated somewhere in this conversation and long before.
Actually, instead of procrastinating here, doing some showOff, the#freePlane bee in the task bar screems for attention!
( .. slips off, trying to leave the relentless fediInteraction ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ )
instead of procrastinating here, doing some showOff, the#freePlane bee in the task bar screems for attention!
Einige Stunden später, Arbeitsnachweis:
.. mit der Erkenntnis das diese Map bereits wieder and die Grenzen des verständlichen und\oder übersichtlichen gestossen ist.#doDo:
Abstand gewinnen, feedback einholen, drüber schlafen und Morgen wieder betrachten.CC:
@mina -
@leanderlindahl do you have any idea for a good alternative? I've been testing two:
Briar: https://briarproject.org/
and
Delta Chat: https://delta.chat/en/
was sent via #DeltaChat -
was sent via #DeltaChat
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I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl these dilemmas are imho indicating how multifaceted the problems we face with digital technology.
European digital independence is both vague and not automatically "good". Would a French or German incorporated adtech Whatsapp replica be "better"?
Being open source and interoperable is key.
See eg. assurance of "credible exit" by the Bluesky team. People are now building a "Eurosky", which if push comes to shove could be an escape. But not sure if Signal can replicate this.
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@dnkrupinski
Es ist schade, dass #DiDay Signal aus Mountain View, CA, als Rezept für Unabhängigkeit empfiehlt.
Das hätte ich mir nicht unter dieser Rubrik vorgestellt. -
@leanderlindahl these dilemmas are imho indicating how multifaceted the problems we face with digital technology.
European digital independence is both vague and not automatically "good". Would a French or German incorporated adtech Whatsapp replica be "better"?
Being open source and interoperable is key.
See eg. assurance of "credible exit" by the Bluesky team. People are now building a "Eurosky", which if push comes to shove could be an escape. But not sure if Signal can replicate this.
@openrisk I'm sorry if I seem insensitive, but I can't see any dilemma here.
The aim of digital independence/sovereignty is to grow the market for our European domestic software sector, whether it'd be open source or commercial, so that the market can grow stronger, thrive and create better products for its large home market. And we can have functioning software and societies independently of any blackmail or other pressures.
It's not about choosing more ethical or nicer products from the US.
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@dnkrupinski
Es ist schade, dass #DiDay Signal aus Mountain View, CA, als Rezept für Unabhängigkeit empfiehlt. Das hätte ich mir nicht unter dieser Rubrik vorgestellt.Ich bin nicht der Initiator dieser Aktion.
Ich persönlich sehe #Threema als bessere Alternative, weil man hierfür keine Mobilfunknummer preisgeben muss.Signal hat die bessere Nutzer:innen-Basis, spricht: die Anzahl der Signal-Nutzenden ist deutlich größer als die der Threema-Nutzer:innen.
Was möglicherweise zum Problem werden könnte bei Threema: Die Firma dahinter wurde übernommen. Was die neue Firma damit anfängt, werden wir sehen – in der Regel bedeutet "Wachstum" immer ein Verschlechterung für die Nutzenden.
Was bereits ein Problem ist:
Für private Nutzung ist Threema kostenpflichtig; ja, es ist nur eine Einmalzahlung und der Betrag liegt bei unter 10,- Euro, aber man muss es kaufen. Übrigens: Für jedes Gerät, dass man benutzen möchte, muss man eine eigene Lizenz kaufen.Ich wäre ja für @delta gewesen, aber mich hat niemand gefragt …
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@leanderlindahl @timon agreed, switching to any kind of USamerican product as "alternative" is nonsensical. Threema is a messanger based in CH & a good alternative.
@Ilka4You @leanderlindahl @timon I'd say there are cases where software being from the USA doesn't impede it being used for European digital sovereignty but it would be very much conditioned on the set of circumstances.
If you have an open source product with licensing that prevents any one party from taking control (copyleft) that does have fully independent European infrastructure and the project is also not controlled by a US entity that would qualify I think.
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@Ilka4You @leanderlindahl @timon I'd say there are cases where software being from the USA doesn't impede it being used for European digital sovereignty but it would be very much conditioned on the set of circumstances.
If you have an open source product with licensing that prevents any one party from taking control (copyleft) that does have fully independent European infrastructure and the project is also not controlled by a US entity that would qualify I think.
@ikuturso @Ilka4You @timon I agree with that. Open source is a great choice. The issue is we want to grow our own independent digital infrastructure so that no one can flick a switch to exert pressure or cause economic or other damage.
With open source applied on a large scale, those products would get more funding, more contributors and consulting and complementing services in an eco system around them will grow.
I'm hoping a mushrooming delta would mean more better alternative clients.
