When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful!
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@jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk I have absolutely no fantasy, quite the contrary, I just know that accurate grid frequency management is extremely complex and that it cant be done reliably with solid state devices. I could change my mind by reading convincing elements that describe how to do it in a way I understand.
@f4grx @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk I'll just chime in with a few thoughts...
1. reversible hydroelectric is a thing - it already stores surplus energy, and feeds the network in proper sync (there's a small number of large generators, so it's handled as any other "big" powerplant). Tall dams and hydro accumulations have their environmental issues.
1/3
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@f4grx @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk I'll just chime in with a few thoughts...
1. reversible hydroelectric is a thing - it already stores surplus energy, and feeds the network in proper sync (there's a small number of large generators, so it's handled as any other "big" powerplant). Tall dams and hydro accumulations have their environmental issues.
1/3
@f4grx @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk
2. Solar panels are providing DC, that already gets synchronized to the AC network. I see no issue with having batteries stored on site with the solar panels, providing the same DC to the DC/AC converter/synchronizer. It already works for the panels.2/3
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@f4grx @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk
2. Solar panels are providing DC, that already gets synchronized to the AC network. I see no issue with having batteries stored on site with the solar panels, providing the same DC to the DC/AC converter/synchronizer. It already works for the panels.2/3
@f4grx @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk
3. Wind turbines generate AC (if I understand correctly) - there's many AC generators on a "wind farm", yet they all get synchronized to the network. If the turbines generate DC, or there's DC involved in the transformation/rectification/synchronization, there's a convenient spot to connect the batteries. If it's purely AC/AC, they're already successfully synching it.
There already is a "production point" where synching to the network is feasible.
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@f4grx @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk
2. Solar panels are providing DC, that already gets synchronized to the AC network. I see no issue with having batteries stored on site with the solar panels, providing the same DC to the DC/AC converter/synchronizer. It already works for the panels.2/3
@rubinjoni
that already works great, I have a DC coupled pv battery system.
@f4grx @jwildeboer -
When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer Worse, we then pay them compensation for shutting it down.
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer Ew free energy.
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@derunglaublichefalk There are other principles that do better, though. Hot sand is as thermal energy storage is one of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage @f4grx
@jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk @f4grx It's ironic that the storage tank in the picture is water-filled and storing excess heat from the gas power plant it belongs to (which is also a district heating plant). They do however have 7 MWh of batteries on-site as a first step.
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@jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk I have absolutely no fantasy, quite the contrary, I just know that accurate grid frequency management is extremely complex and that it cant be done reliably with solid state devices. I could change my mind by reading convincing elements that describe how to do it in a way I understand.
@f4grx @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk Research has started looking into this in recent years and found it can be done -- but most inverters are not designed to do that, they're "grid following" instead of "grid forming".
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@f4grx @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk Research has started looking into this in recent years and found it can be done -- but most inverters are not designed to do that, they're "grid following" instead of "grid forming".
@cm Technically it is more or less solved to create decoupled local grids that manage their own frequency while still being synchronised enough to the big grid interconnects. The local grids could actually profit from managing their own frequency as it is a good indicator of the ratio of input and output. @f4grx @derunglaublichefalk
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@cm Technically it is more or less solved to create decoupled local grids that manage their own frequency while still being synchronised enough to the big grid interconnects. The local grids could actually profit from managing their own frequency as it is a good indicator of the ratio of input and output. @f4grx @derunglaublichefalk
@cm This bottom-up approach to grid design is happening as we speak in regions that didn't have a Big Grid. Think jungle and desert regions. Solar, wind and batteries allows them to create lots of local grids and they are now starting to connect them. That is very different form our western top-down and Holy Grid Frequency thinking. We can learn a lot from what is happening in other places. If we decide to do so
@f4grx @derunglaublichefalk -
@f4grx @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk
3. Wind turbines generate AC (if I understand correctly) - there's many AC generators on a "wind farm", yet they all get synchronized to the network. If the turbines generate DC, or there's DC involved in the transformation/rectification/synchronization, there's a convenient spot to connect the batteries. If it's purely AC/AC, they're already successfully synching it.
There already is a "production point" where synching to the network is feasible.
@rubinjoni @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk lol no, no way to sync wind turbines to AC with the frequency precision required by the grid, there are inverters of course
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@rubinjoni @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk lol no, no way to sync wind turbines to AC with the frequency precision required by the grid, there are inverters of course
@f4grx I see "the frequency precision required by the grid" as a way for the grid operators to stay in control. It's a design choice. Allowing partial desyncs within agreed ranges won't break the grid, IF you allow for full decouple when these ranges are exceeded. The Iberian shutdown is a good example of that. If we had defined ways to decouple and resnyc later instead of shutting down massive amounts of renewable plants, the blackout could have been avoided. @rubinjoni @derunglaublichefalk
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@f4grx I see "the frequency precision required by the grid" as a way for the grid operators to stay in control. It's a design choice. Allowing partial desyncs within agreed ranges won't break the grid, IF you allow for full decouple when these ranges are exceeded. The Iberian shutdown is a good example of that. If we had defined ways to decouple and resnyc later instead of shutting down massive amounts of renewable plants, the blackout could have been avoided. @rubinjoni @derunglaublichefalk
@jwildeboer @rubinjoni @derunglaublichefalk man, the grid frequency is important for much more infrastructure that you think! I understand your point, for sure. but I am reaaaallly not sure that it's feasible!
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@jwildeboer @rubinjoni @derunglaublichefalk man, the grid frequency is important for much more infrastructure that you think! I understand your point, for sure. but I am reaaaallly not sure that it's feasible!
@f4grx My point is — we are not even trying to explore the feasibility, because it is immediately shut down with "The Holy Grid Frequency Shall Not Be Questioned". But exactly this approach of a new grid design is now being explored in regions where there effectively is no grid but lots of local solar/wind plants. @rubinjoni @derunglaublichefalk
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@Reinald There's real scarcity and artificial scarcity. I dare say that the whole digital/internet business is based on artificial scarcity, where we accept things like Digital Rights Management to keep the reality of abundance more or less a secret.
@jwildeboer @Reinald in the biophysical domain scarcity is more or less anchored on the planetary boundaries (and within reason, renewable energy is not constrained by them
, though it gets more complicated with supply chains and waste etc)In the human domain, what can I say, this magical silicon stuff is something humanity doesn't deserve. For decades visionaries waxed lyrical about its incredible potential and in practice all that happens is deeper levels of dystopia. Something's gotta give
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer
more like it's the legislative branch is bought and paid for by the petro state... -
@jwildeboer @Reinald in the biophysical domain scarcity is more or less anchored on the planetary boundaries (and within reason, renewable energy is not constrained by them
, though it gets more complicated with supply chains and waste etc)In the human domain, what can I say, this magical silicon stuff is something humanity doesn't deserve. For decades visionaries waxed lyrical about its incredible potential and in practice all that happens is deeper levels of dystopia. Something's gotta give
@openrisk @jwildeboer for me, abundance means: enough for everybody. It is, of course, within planetary limits. With growth rates declining, peak humanity might be at 10 or 11 Billion human beeings. And they all could have a decent and healthy life. They could not all have 150m yachts and private jets.
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@openrisk @jwildeboer for me, abundance means: enough for everybody. It is, of course, within planetary limits. With growth rates declining, peak humanity might be at 10 or 11 Billion human beeings. And they all could have a decent and healthy life. They could not all have 150m yachts and private jets.
one would have to do the calculation but its not inconceivable that everybody of the 11 billion could have at least *some* "yacht" experience in their lives (and 50% would get sea-sick and hate it
).Of course if we keep inventing materially wasteful status symbols to play paleolithic social dominance games via "ownership" and exlcusion, we do run against hard limits. So-called "space tourism" comes to mind as obvious example.
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one would have to do the calculation but its not inconceivable that everybody of the 11 billion could have at least *some* "yacht" experience in their lives (and 50% would get sea-sick and hate it
).Of course if we keep inventing materially wasteful status symbols to play paleolithic social dominance games via "ownership" and exlcusion, we do run against hard limits. So-called "space tourism" comes to mind as obvious example.
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@jwildeboer @openrisk yes and no. Ending Scarcity is not in the interest of big companies in that area. And the Technologie is allready there - batteries work (even commercially), H2 electrolysis not yet, seasonal cycles not yet. For short term stabilizing even flywheels work.
