I'm once again begging people to stop blaming the victims of shitty techbro nonsense.
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I'm once again begging people to stop blaming the victims of shitty techbro nonsense. Switching cost is never zero.
Spicy take:
Normal people shouldn't self host.
From an energy use perspective, the users per watt are WAY higher in a data center.
People are already awful at running patches and doing security updates.
OMG are people awful at doing backups.
From an ewaste POV, consumer electronics just don't have a very long lifespan, fail more frequently, are rarely upgradable, and easily broken. Enterprise grade servers in a data center are better.
Hosted services actually have a SOC to monitor what the fuck is going on and investigate unusual things. An individual normal user would never notice their self hosted server being popped for forever, and we already have far too many zombies.
Sure, megacorps aren't trustworthy stewards of key internet services like email either. But telling everyone they need yet another home appliance, but one you're going to have to fuck with several hours per month to keep running.
Dynamic DNS suck balls, IPv4 is running out, hosting shit being a NAT and reverse proxies and shch is its own thing, and lots and lots of people don't have very good home internet links.
Up front cost - yes, I know people "pay" for their social media and email with their privacy and advertising. But that means that saying they need to spend several hundred on a whole new computer and find a place to put it or rent a VPS or ...
Fact of the matter is, some sort of SaaS setup for web services IS the right solution for 97% of users. Scolding people for being abused by unregulated tech companies isn't solving anything. The right solution is to make people become more aware of the intentional and malicious enshittified bullshit techbros are cramming down their throat, and lobby the government to strengthen regulations.
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J jwcph@helvede.net shared this topic
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Spicy take:
Normal people shouldn't self host.
From an energy use perspective, the users per watt are WAY higher in a data center.
People are already awful at running patches and doing security updates.
OMG are people awful at doing backups.
From an ewaste POV, consumer electronics just don't have a very long lifespan, fail more frequently, are rarely upgradable, and easily broken. Enterprise grade servers in a data center are better.
Hosted services actually have a SOC to monitor what the fuck is going on and investigate unusual things. An individual normal user would never notice their self hosted server being popped for forever, and we already have far too many zombies.
Sure, megacorps aren't trustworthy stewards of key internet services like email either. But telling everyone they need yet another home appliance, but one you're going to have to fuck with several hours per month to keep running.
Dynamic DNS suck balls, IPv4 is running out, hosting shit being a NAT and reverse proxies and shch is its own thing, and lots and lots of people don't have very good home internet links.
Up front cost - yes, I know people "pay" for their social media and email with their privacy and advertising. But that means that saying they need to spend several hundred on a whole new computer and find a place to put it or rent a VPS or ...
Fact of the matter is, some sort of SaaS setup for web services IS the right solution for 97% of users. Scolding people for being abused by unregulated tech companies isn't solving anything. The right solution is to make people become more aware of the intentional and malicious enshittified bullshit techbros are cramming down their throat, and lobby the government to strengthen regulations.
@JessTheUnstill Very much agree. I feel the "Just self-host" / "Just switch to Linux" line of responses to regular people's tech woes is at least somewhat akin to telling people they can solve the climate crisis by going vegan.
You don't solve systemic problems at the individual level - that's just not now things work.
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T tofticles@helvede.net shared this topic
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@JessTheUnstill Very much agree. I feel the "Just self-host" / "Just switch to Linux" line of responses to regular people's tech woes is at least somewhat akin to telling people they can solve the climate crisis by going vegan.
You don't solve systemic problems at the individual level - that's just not now things work.
@jwcph @JessTheUnstill TBF nobody needs to be scared of Linux any more. If your tech woes, like most normal
people, are of the sort "Ads on desktop🤮" "I don't want to see this AI shit any more", "I don't want to be pressured to use this thing I don't want, or worse, have it silently turned on without consent" or "why the fuck do I have to give a company all this data just to log into my own computer?!", Linux is a legit answer. "Organize and lobby to solve those systemic problems" is fine and necessary work, but it won't do anything for these people today. -
@jwcph @JessTheUnstill TBF nobody needs to be scared of Linux any more. If your tech woes, like most normal
people, are of the sort "Ads on desktop🤮" "I don't want to see this AI shit any more", "I don't want to be pressured to use this thing I don't want, or worse, have it silently turned on without consent" or "why the fuck do I have to give a company all this data just to log into my own computer?!", Linux is a legit answer. "Organize and lobby to solve those systemic problems" is fine and necessary work, but it won't do anything for these people today.@menos @JessTheUnstill That's just not true. As a regular non-techie user, you absolutely have good reason to be scared of Linux.
I am fairly tech-savvy & have tried & failed to go Linux half a dozen times over the past more than a decade - it just IS NOT that easy, even to me; I totally understand why a normie can't do it.
There WILL be some issue you can't ignore, for which every solution you can find - if you can find any - will involve opening a Terminal window.
That's a dealbreaker.
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@menos @JessTheUnstill That's just not true. As a regular non-techie user, you absolutely have good reason to be scared of Linux.
I am fairly tech-savvy & have tried & failed to go Linux half a dozen times over the past more than a decade - it just IS NOT that easy, even to me; I totally understand why a normie can't do it.
There WILL be some issue you can't ignore, for which every solution you can find - if you can find any - will involve opening a Terminal window.
That's a dealbreaker.
@menos @JessTheUnstill - or, as Emily puts is much more succinctly... https://social.afront.org/@MLE_online/115362392097280177
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@menos @JessTheUnstill That's just not true. As a regular non-techie user, you absolutely have good reason to be scared of Linux.
I am fairly tech-savvy & have tried & failed to go Linux half a dozen times over the past more than a decade - it just IS NOT that easy, even to me; I totally understand why a normie can't do it.
There WILL be some issue you can't ignore, for which every solution you can find - if you can find any - will involve opening a Terminal window.
That's a dealbreaker.
@jwcph @JessTheUnstill In a similar situation on Windows you'll have to deal with Regedit which has all the downsides of a terminal combined with those of a GUI application and then some. Or worse, like I just had a few months back when a webcam stopped working. The hardware is fine, but the user ended up buying a new one anyway because "
️reinstall" was the only advice anyone could give and that was just too much hassle.
I've installed several Debian systems by just accepting the defaults and they keep working just fine. They don't ask you to solve captchas to log in, copy codes from your mobile, bombard you with confusing popups. You click "next" a couple of times, enter a name and password, and end up with a working system. The last Macbook I tried that on sent me into an endless loop of "We ran into a problem. Please try again later" (nice and non-technical, also absolutely useless), as it turned out after much googling, it was because the intended user was too young
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@menos @JessTheUnstill - or, as Emily puts is much more succinctly... https://social.afront.org/@MLE_online/115362392097280177
@jwcph @JessTheUnstill My mother is past 80 and the most computer illiterate person ever. She's been using Ubuntu for over a decade and couldn't even tell you. There's a browser, there's a mail program. Everything else is well hidden. It just doesn't do unexpected things.
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@jwcph @JessTheUnstill In a similar situation on Windows you'll have to deal with Regedit which has all the downsides of a terminal combined with those of a GUI application and then some. Or worse, like I just had a few months back when a webcam stopped working. The hardware is fine, but the user ended up buying a new one anyway because "
️reinstall" was the only advice anyone could give and that was just too much hassle.
I've installed several Debian systems by just accepting the defaults and they keep working just fine. They don't ask you to solve captchas to log in, copy codes from your mobile, bombard you with confusing popups. You click "next" a couple of times, enter a name and password, and end up with a working system. The last Macbook I tried that on sent me into an endless loop of "We ran into a problem. Please try again later" (nice and non-technical, also absolutely useless), as it turned out after much googling, it was because the intended user was too young@menos @JessTheUnstill - except the "similar situation" is nearly every time (in my experience actually every time) on Linux vs. edge cases on corporate systems (Mac & Win both).
Add to that that most user can, in fact, get some help for their corporate systems, especially if they just bought them, while finding help with Linux as a non-techie user is almost impossible & the "you can easily switch" claim just isn't true.
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@jwcph @JessTheUnstill My mother is past 80 and the most computer illiterate person ever. She's been using Ubuntu for over a decade and couldn't even tell you. There's a browser, there's a mail program. Everything else is well hidden. It just doesn't do unexpected things.
@menos @JessTheUnstill Sure - but did she switch, i.e. install Ubuntu on her own computer, by herself?
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@menos @JessTheUnstill - except the "similar situation" is nearly every time (in my experience actually every time) on Linux vs. edge cases on corporate systems (Mac & Win both).
Add to that that most user can, in fact, get some help for their corporate systems, especially if they just bought them, while finding help with Linux as a non-techie user is almost impossible & the "you can easily switch" claim just isn't true.
@jwcph @JessTheUnstill Mine was very much not an edge case. I wanted and bought a school computer for my son. They let me create an AppleID for a person under 16yo just fine. Only when I tried to actually use it, I ended up with a completely useless error message and no way to use the app store or even install updates. Wanna try to get support for that from an electronics discounter?
I also have a scanner here that I got as a gift because it's just not supported any more on Windows 10. "GTFO, it won't work, ever" is one way of supporting the user to avoid opening a terminal of course (just kidding, you don't even need to do that on Linux, just plug it in).
In my experience, " just try Linux" is virtually always an offer for help if people like my mom should feel clicking "next" a bunch of times is too technical. I mean, everybody gets their Windows preinstalled as well so I provided that service, too. -
@jwcph @JessTheUnstill Mine was very much not an edge case. I wanted and bought a school computer for my son. They let me create an AppleID for a person under 16yo just fine. Only when I tried to actually use it, I ended up with a completely useless error message and no way to use the app store or even install updates. Wanna try to get support for that from an electronics discounter?
I also have a scanner here that I got as a gift because it's just not supported any more on Windows 10. "GTFO, it won't work, ever" is one way of supporting the user to avoid opening a terminal of course (just kidding, you don't even need to do that on Linux, just plug it in).
In my experience, " just try Linux" is virtually always an offer for help if people like my mom should feel clicking "next" a bunch of times is too technical. I mean, everybody gets their Windows preinstalled as well so I provided that service, too.@menos @JessTheUnstill Thanks for proving my point.
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@menos @JessTheUnstill Sure - but did she switch, i.e. install Ubuntu on her own computer, by herself?
@jwcph @menos @JessTheUnstill this is the question.
It's not about using Linux when it is already working on your PC.
.it's the work you need to invest into a proper backup, alternative softwares, deletion of your windows and then installation of Linux
I am fine using Linux. I am having trouble doing the whole process.
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@jwcph @menos @JessTheUnstill this is the question.
It's not about using Linux when it is already working on your PC.
.it's the work you need to invest into a proper backup, alternative softwares, deletion of your windows and then installation of Linux
I am fine using Linux. I am having trouble doing the whole process.
@cy @menos @JessTheUnstill Exactly! I was starting to think I wasn't making myself clear
This is also why I want to start out dual-booting, because running Linux off a USB stick isn't going to feel like a "real" user experience - IMHO every switching guide should start with that.
If you can find a switching guide remotely understandable by non-techies.
Which is incredibly difficult.
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@jwcph @menos @JessTheUnstill this is the question.
It's not about using Linux when it is already working on your PC.
.it's the work you need to invest into a proper backup, alternative softwares, deletion of your windows and then installation of Linux
I am fine using Linux. I am having trouble doing the whole process.
@cy @jwcph @JessTheUnstill If that's the remaining threshold: when Windows tells you it's time to buy a new computer because your old one won't be supported now, just buy one preinstalled with Linux. You'd have to solve the backup problem with Windows just the same so it must be possible.
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@cy @jwcph @JessTheUnstill If that's the remaining threshold: when Windows tells you it's time to buy a new computer because your old one won't be supported now, just buy one preinstalled with Linux. You'd have to solve the backup problem with Windows just the same so it must be possible.
@menos @cy @JessTheUnstill That would be great! Of course, a regular computer user will want to buy from a shop they know & few if any computer stores sell machines with Linux installed.
Hopefully this, too, will change as more & more people, organisations & companies make the switch
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@menos @cy @JessTheUnstill That would be great! Of course, a regular computer user will want to buy from a shop they know & few if any computer stores sell machines with Linux installed.
Hopefully this, too, will change as more & more people, organisations & companies make the switch
@jwcph @cy @JessTheUnstill As long as only the small, regional nerd outlets such as Dell and Lenovo offer preinstalled Linux, we can only hope for a better future where they offer Linux laptops on the shelves between the beer and the charcoal at your corner store. Then, maybe.
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@jwcph @cy @JessTheUnstill As long as only the small, regional nerd outlets such as Dell and Lenovo offer preinstalled Linux, we can only hope for a better future where they offer Linux laptops on the shelves between the beer and the charcoal at your corner store. Then, maybe.
@menos @cy @JessTheUnstill I've never seen those here - it's not enough that those vendors have them, the retailers need to offer them, too; the regular user isn't going to ask & risk getting into a debate with the shop guy over it.
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@menos @cy @JessTheUnstill I've never seen those here - it's not enough that those vendors have them, the retailers need to offer them, too; the regular user isn't going to ask & risk getting into a debate with the shop guy over it.
@menos @cy @JessTheUnstill - also, I just went to Lenovo's website to check if it's a regional thing & even though they have a page labeled "Linux Laptops", those machines appear to still ship with Windows installed... https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/d/linux-laptops-desktops/
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@menos @cy @JessTheUnstill - also, I just went to Lenovo's website to check if it's a regional thing & even though they have a page labeled "Linux Laptops", those machines appear to still ship with Windows installed... https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/d/linux-laptops-desktops/
@jwcph @cy @JessTheUnstill It says "Shop laptops and desktops computers with Linux preloaded at Lenovo". I only know one person who ever ordered one but that's what she got. I suppose they still include a license for Windows because MS bulk contract conditions.
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@menos @cy @JessTheUnstill I've never seen those here - it's not enough that those vendors have them, the retailers need to offer them, too; the regular user isn't going to ask & risk getting into a debate with the shop guy over it.
@jwcph @cy @JessTheUnstill If *asking a shop assistant* is too hard to get out of what you call "tech woes", I'd say you don't really have any.
