The recent post criticising Free Software advocates for advocating user-modifiable software and then being annoyed at LLMs annoys me and the reason is best illustrated by this analogy:
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@paelnever @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall "Yo don't need to use weak arguments they can easily dismantle."
I don't think that any of the arguments David makes are weak or easily dismantled - in fact, I think pointing out that all the providers are muscling in on loss leadership so they can start extorting their customers just like Uber does is a very solid argument that actually gets managers to listen.
The argument that "AGI is a lie" will not have pull over people who use LLM codegen.
@paelnever @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall My boss and his bosses do not give a single fuck about terminology. They give a fuck about money and entrepreneurial risk. Arguments aimed at THESE things actually get through to them.
If an argument does not get through to people, it is not the best argument, unless your goal is to be a smug asshole rather than actually convincing people.
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@paelnever @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall My boss and his bosses do not give a single fuck about terminology. They give a fuck about money and entrepreneurial risk. Arguments aimed at THESE things actually get through to them.
If an argument does not get through to people, it is not the best argument, unless your goal is to be a smug asshole rather than actually convincing people.
@paelnever @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall my employer is heavily pivoting to AI, and they ACTIVELY PREEMPT the criticism about water and energy usage by making token effort to reduce these things, and also shrugging and saying "we don't like it but we have to do it or we'll be left behind".
You have to attack the idea that codegen is beneficial TO THE COMPANY, or you are wasting your time.
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@paelnever @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall My boss and his bosses do not give a single fuck about terminology. They give a fuck about money and entrepreneurial risk. Arguments aimed at THESE things actually get through to them.
If an argument does not get through to people, it is not the best argument, unless your goal is to be a smug asshole rather than actually convincing people.
@ratsnakegames @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall
If people don't understand arguments that's not a problem of arguments. During decades the system is being dismantling education and turning people into idiots unable to think.You don't "attack the idea that codegen is beneficial to the company" by making a fake analogy about FOSS and LLMs compared to public transport and uber. You DO attack that idea by showing statistics that demonstrate software developers are not being more productive with LLMs. Those papers exist.
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@ermo @david_chisnall how come what? Me finding it weird that FOSS people see excluding non-human entities, that were the reason why FOSS movement started, to be incompatible with their goals?
@hjvt @ermo @david_chisnall RMS wrote an interesting piece about this topic:
That said, the popular view is that if you want to restrict usage, the only reliable way will be writing proprietary software where you can control who gets it. No one will stop you from doing that.
I'd suggest that the more useful thing to do is to convince other people of the rightness of your predilections and get them to vote. Reshape the world such that people are punished for doing unethical things, rather than rewarded, and you won't have to special-case your software licenses.
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@paelnever @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall "Yo don't need to use weak arguments they can easily dismantle."
I don't think that any of the arguments David makes are weak or easily dismantled - in fact, I think pointing out that all the providers are muscling in on loss leadership so they can start extorting their customers just like Uber does is a very solid argument that actually gets managers to listen.
The argument that "AGI is a lie" will not have pull over people who use LLM codegen.
@ratsnakegames @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall
I'm sorry but a fake analogy is not a valid argument and will never be.
Most of the people who actually use LLM codegen they DO understand "AGI" is a lie. Maybe is a surprise to you but there are people who understand that all technologies can be used in the right or the wrong way.
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@ratsnakegames @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall
I'm sorry but a fake analogy is not a valid argument and will never be.
Most of the people who actually use LLM codegen they DO understand "AGI" is a lie. Maybe is a surprise to you but there are people who understand that all technologies can be used in the right or the wrong way.
@paelnever @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall it is not a fake analogy.
I'm gonna block you now because you're tedious.
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If you're an author and you wrote a book, and I liked it, could I copy it (except for a few words I change) and publish it?
What if I'm a corporation with deep pockets and a massive marketing budget, and my copy becomes wildly popular?
Now no one is reading your original and you're not even credited as an inspiration. But that's okay, because it let someone else write a book, you're saying?
Free software and writing both depend on copyright, and LLMs famously violate copyright at scale.
@david_chisnall -
@ratsnakegames @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall
I'm sorry but a fake analogy is not a valid argument and will never be.
Most of the people who actually use LLM codegen they DO understand "AGI" is a lie. Maybe is a surprise to you but there are people who understand that all technologies can be used in the right or the wrong way.
@ratsnakegames @raymaccarthy @david_chisnall
Of course you can ragequit a conversation and block me if you want but you don't need to insult and incite other people to block. You can just leave.
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@david_chisnall As someone who has been an enthusiast and contributor to open source since before it had that name:
We have never delivered on the idea of user-modifiable software. We have sometimes freed software builders from unnecessary toll booths and restrictions. In other words, we built something that works for us and stopped.
I think your analogy of literal crazy taxis is good when talking about LLMs for noncoders. But there was no actual product from FL/OSS world that it’s displacing
@neilk @david_chisnall LLMs are displacing the open source movement itself.
By flooding FLOSS projects with slop requests on one side, and copyright-washing their code on the other side. -
@david_chisnall @crazyeddie The tools exist, and people will use them. You all can argue about it and seethe into the ether, but people are going to do it, whether pro devs like it or not.
@shanesemler @david_chisnall @crazyeddie Talk about it when their tools can hold their own weight without billions of venture capital dollars poured into them.
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