I've heard many liberals say things along the lines of "ICE aren't real police" this often goes hand in hand with "ICE is poorly trained."
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... or you recognize that state violence is still state violence when the person being beaten doesn't share your politics or has an accent.
Do we *all* have rights or nah?
If you think everyone ought to have the same rights. That police shouldn't shove a woman to the ground because she's yelling or shoot a man for standing "in the way" if you can see these things are wrong, you are now "one of those crazies who don't like the police."
@futurebird ICE are, in fact, the polici-est police
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@futurebird tbf American discourse *IS* disproportionally critical of the sheer idea of the police and very often goes "fuck cops" instead of "reform the police" despite not being anarchist.
"American discourse *IS* disproportionally critical of the sheer idea of the police"
I think you have a wildly skewed view of "American discourse" and may only be listening to people in this corner of the internet.
There are people who over simplify the issue, or who you may encounter right after they have seen someone they care about beaten up by a cop who will never face any repercussions for their actions. But that isn't the "the discourse."
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@futurebird what I get out of this situation is border agents are used to working without public scrutiny. Habits form. Now there is public scrutiny, away from the border zones. But there have been indications of gratuitous violence over time. Like this story from 2018. But still, ICE is not our police. The U.S. has no national police force.
https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/arizona/retrial-for-border-agent-accused-of-killing-mexican-teen/75-03b7d99f-6b4a-4ea1-a99d-1f818bd71c17A big problem is that undocumented US residents don't want to call attention to themselves. They just want to get their paperwork sorted and go on doing their job and ... living.
There is a lot of violence that we don't hear or see. Would you make a big deal about the way someone from ICE shoved you around if doing so might mean you could have your whole career and life upended? Mark you off as a troublemaker?
People put up with so many indignities.
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"American discourse *IS* disproportionally critical of the sheer idea of the police"
I think you have a wildly skewed view of "American discourse" and may only be listening to people in this corner of the internet.
There are people who over simplify the issue, or who you may encounter right after they have seen someone they care about beaten up by a cop who will never face any repercussions for their actions. But that isn't the "the discourse."
@futurebird not just here --- rightists, as well. Maybe to a lesser extent, yes. But besides, leftists are as much part of the discourse as they're in any other place and yet you don't have this much of specifically fuck-cop-iness in other places.
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I've heard many liberals say things along the lines of "ICE aren't real police" this often goes hand in hand with "ICE is poorly trained."
This can feel like a safe bit of middle ground. You aren't one of those radical crazies who are always so critical of the police. It's not that what they are trying to do is wrong, no, it's *how* they are going about doing it.
But, the ICE officers who have killed have been long-time veterans. It's not about "training."
@futurebird training aside, they aren't police and they shouldn't be wearing gear that says "police".
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ICE isn't even law enforcment. They can't arrest people under most circumstances.
This is an inner US discussion, and I don't want to intrude.
But I think it's important to stress that ICE is not doing police work. They are doing intimidation based on party politics. They are a party milita like Sturmabteilung (SA) was.
The lawlessness and impunity of ICE is not a bug, it's a feature.
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ICE isn't even law enforcment. They can't arrest people under most circumstances.
This is an inner US discussion, and I don't want to intrude.
But I think it's important to stress that ICE is not doing police work. They are doing intimidation based on party politics. They are a party milita like Sturmabteilung (SA) was.
The lawlessness and impunity of ICE is not a bug, it's a feature.
I think it's really important to realize that the purpose and self-image of ICE is way different than that of cops. Even in the US with its cop impunity and racism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-3O7h2TIjc
Having a party militia is bad enough. But you really want as much of a wedge between them and police as possible.
In Nazi Germany, state police got nationalized and placed under control of the party militia (SS). You don't want this to happen.
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... or you recognize that state violence is still state violence when the person being beaten doesn't share your politics or has an accent.
Do we *all* have rights or nah?
If you think everyone ought to have the same rights. That police shouldn't shove a woman to the ground because she's yelling or shoot a man for standing "in the way" if you can see these things are wrong, you are now "one of those crazies who don't like the police."
@futurebird You cannot spell “police” without “ice.”
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I've heard many liberals say things along the lines of "ICE aren't real police" this often goes hand in hand with "ICE is poorly trained."
This can feel like a safe bit of middle ground. You aren't one of those radical crazies who are always so critical of the police. It's not that what they are trying to do is wrong, no, it's *how* they are going about doing it.
But, the ICE officers who have killed have been long-time veterans. It's not about "training."
@futurebird
ICE are a gendarmerie. Most, if not all, US police forces are also gendarmerie. Whether any of them are technically "police" under the US or non-US meanings of the word is irrelevant to the fact that they are all armed para-military agents of the state. -
I've heard many liberals say things along the lines of "ICE aren't real police" this often goes hand in hand with "ICE is poorly trained."
This can feel like a safe bit of middle ground. You aren't one of those radical crazies who are always so critical of the police. It's not that what they are trying to do is wrong, no, it's *how* they are going about doing it.
But, the ICE officers who have killed have been long-time veterans. It's not about "training."
@futurebird Veteran ICEholes are the ones (poorly) training the recruits. The recruits still haven't gotten used to their newfound power and freedom to kill at will. Just give them a few weeks.
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I really want to think that most Americans aren’t interested in being at war with their neighbors, doing “purges” and “purifying the blood of the land” if not because it’s obviously evil then because it’s a lot of work and no fun.
Do you really want to report your neighbors for “radical anti-government ideology” and worry if you have been reported?
Wouldn’t you just rather watch the game? Or go to work and make money? or help your kid with their science fair project?
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I really want to think that most Americans aren’t interested in being at war with their neighbors, doing “purges” and “purifying the blood of the land” if not because it’s obviously evil then because it’s a lot of work and no fun.
Do you really want to report your neighbors for “radical anti-government ideology” and worry if you have been reported?
Wouldn’t you just rather watch the game? Or go to work and make money? or help your kid with their science fair project?
@futurebird @FediThing but the leopards wouldn’t eat *my* face…
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I really want to think that most Americans aren’t interested in being at war with their neighbors, doing “purges” and “purifying the blood of the land” if not because it’s obviously evil then because it’s a lot of work and no fun.
Do you really want to report your neighbors for “radical anti-government ideology” and worry if you have been reported?
Wouldn’t you just rather watch the game? Or go to work and make money? or help your kid with their science fair project?
Only Stephen Miller and assorted deeply disturbed men (and a few women, though this is a bad deal even for white women when you read the fine print) are excited about this project. And I don’t think most of them understand the size of the endeavor or just how ugly it must be. We have seen only a hint of their idea: streets patrolled by thugs, people hiding in their homes— that’s the only way to do this.
Are there really enough people to make it the new reality?
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I really want to think that most Americans aren’t interested in being at war with their neighbors, doing “purges” and “purifying the blood of the land” if not because it’s obviously evil then because it’s a lot of work and no fun.
Do you really want to report your neighbors for “radical anti-government ideology” and worry if you have been reported?
Wouldn’t you just rather watch the game? Or go to work and make money? or help your kid with their science fair project?
There is a large group of Americans who would much rather report their neighbors than do anything with their kids or even watch the game. It's like a third.
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There is a large group of Americans who would much rather report their neighbors than do anything with their kids or even watch the game. It's like a third.
I think it’s more like 30 percent— who don’t reject the idea right away— who don’t have a visceral “hell no” reaction.
But I think the number among that 30 percent willing to step away from their X-box or sandwich and do this work is even smaller. But I don’t know if it’s half of the thirty percent or one in 20.
Tough talk is cheap.
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Only Stephen Miller and assorted deeply disturbed men (and a few women, though this is a bad deal even for white women when you read the fine print) are excited about this project. And I don’t think most of them understand the size of the endeavor or just how ugly it must be. We have seen only a hint of their idea: streets patrolled by thugs, people hiding in their homes— that’s the only way to do this.
Are there really enough people to make it the new reality?
I really hope there are not enough ICE personal available. Iirc there are now 22k ICE thugs, and they are already scraping the bottom of the barrel.
By comparison, the SA had 400k members in 1933 Germany, at 1/5 of the current US population.
I think a lot will depend on whether Trump can get agencies other than the border police to side with his MAGA militia.
Seeing FBI agents ordered to join ICE operations is worrysome.
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I really hope there are not enough ICE personal available. Iirc there are now 22k ICE thugs, and they are already scraping the bottom of the barrel.
By comparison, the SA had 400k members in 1933 Germany, at 1/5 of the current US population.
I think a lot will depend on whether Trump can get agencies other than the border police to side with his MAGA militia.
Seeing FBI agents ordered to join ICE operations is worrysome.
Currently, the trend seems other agencies growing more and more distant to ICE.
Strategically, the ICE crackdown doesn't seem to work out for Trump. The 4% population being organized in anti-ICE networks in Minneapolis is impressive.
But I'm worried that Trump will use ICE to try to escalate violence asa terrorism or insurrection pretext to order other agencies to support the ICE crackdown on political opposition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire -
@futurebird @FediThing re: "Getting rid of the existing police (ICE) and remaking it ..."
How is this not just one more "they (ICE) are trying to accomplish a reasonable thing, they're just using bad methods" suggestion?
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