No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture."
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I wouldn't be saying all this if it was just Doctorow, I'm even fine disagreeing with people I deeply respect. But he's not the only one saying shit like this, and I think it's worth calling out the broader rhetorical point.
@xgranade generally I am very sick of the condescending attitude a lot of boosters tend to have about this. that because people are (justifiably!) upset about LLMs-in-practice, we're being unreasonable or hysterical (a word I use intentionally because it does feel like people mean that even if they don't say it).
I would be inclined to grant more good faith if it felt like any came from the boosters. or if the net effect of "well hold on maybe the answer is in the middle / maybe we can open source models etc etc" wasn't just normalizing this stuff further, on a broader scale.
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Hell, if you disagree with me and think I'm wrong on the merits, then by all means make that argument! (Preferably not in my mentions, I'm tired of this whole debacle and am not personally open to changing my mind on LLMs right now.)
But "purity culture" isn't an argument, it's an appeal to the idea that holding principles is *bad*.
@xgranade I was drafting a thing on principles at my factory job today.
I think at the front of that is probably going to be "having principles is good and important" because, yes, all of this.
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@dave @aud I'm not personally sure I'd go quite that far. Someone I respect said something I vehemently disagree with, it happens. I don't think it'd be reasonable of me to insist that my heroes, as it were, agree with me on even all the important things.
I'm only being as pointed with the above because what he said is *also* something a lot of far worse people have said, and now they have more ammo.
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social it would be really nice if highly visible people quit it with the, "you know, you gotta hand it to the nazis on this one..."
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@dave @aud I'm not personally sure I'd go quite that far. Someone I respect said something I vehemently disagree with, it happens. I don't think it'd be reasonable of me to insist that my heroes, as it were, agree with me on even all the important things.
I'm only being as pointed with the above because what he said is *also* something a lot of far worse people have said, and now they have more ammo.
@xgranade @aud yeah I should clarify I'm not saying he's not still a role model or that I don't also still respect him, I'm just saying in this case he very much said some white man in tech shit. Like, he used the word "neoliberal". That's a lapse in judgement when you're trying to defend your autocorrect.
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@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social it would be really nice if highly visible people quit it with the, "you know, you gotta hand it to the nazis on this one..."
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social also: imagine, if you will, using the term "purity culture" to refer to people (including many LGBTQ people) taking a stand against one of the major tools of christofascists
ffs -
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social also: imagine, if you will, using the term "purity culture" to refer to people (including many LGBTQ people) taking a stand against one of the major tools of christofascists
ffs -
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social also: imagine, if you will, using the term "purity culture" to refer to people (including many LGBTQ people) taking a stand against one of the major tools of christofascists
ffs@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social the current speaker of the house keeps tab on how often his son fucking masturbates
fuck off with "purity culture" to refer to people who are trying to keep culture alive... while many of the same people are also castigated by the actual purity culture fuckers for "sexual deviancy". -
@dave@alvarado.social @xgranade@wandering.shop gonna need "eye socket" wash at this rate for the empty spaces where my rage melted eyeballs once existed
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@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social the current speaker of the house keeps tab on how often his son fucking masturbates
fuck off with "purity culture" to refer to people who are trying to keep culture alive... while many of the same people are also castigated by the actual purity culture fuckers for "sexual deviancy". -
No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
Purity culture? 'Purity culture' is just a snarl to degrade those rejecting something primarily good or even just neutral for one aspect of it. The impact of that aspect can vary on a person to person basis, and can often outweigh the positives. (See: Brendan Carr and Brave.)
Either way, rejecting a steaming pile of toxic shit even if it might hypothetically have a piece of candy inside isn't purity culture. It's just refusing to eat shit.
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@dave@alvarado.social @xgranade@wandering.shop I can feel em flaring up white hot with rage
graaaaah
the same people that hated me as a kid and controlled the stupid fucking state of utah are now the same types of assholes who control the fucking federal government. I hate this country, I hate LLMs, I hate all these fucking pedophiles in charge and their tech tools. -
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social the current speaker of the house keeps tab on how often his son fucking masturbates
fuck off with "purity culture" to refer to people who are trying to keep culture alive... while many of the same people are also castigated by the actual purity culture fuckers for "sexual deviancy".@aud @dave All of which goes into why I disagree with him vehemently *on this specific point*. But like, I also say some problematic and wildly untrue things sometimes — I try not to, but that's the result of being human, being loud, and being on the internet.
I cannot think of a single person I follow (present company included) who hasn't made me go "oh lordy" at least once and close the laptop lid.
I feel like this is an "oh lordy" moment for how I relate to Doctorow, I guess?
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@xgranade I was drafting a thing on principles at my factory job today.
I think at the front of that is probably going to be "having principles is good and important" because, yes, all of this.
By drafting, I mean specifically the critical front work of thinking about what I want to write, why, and what I find important to say.
The actual drafting comes when I'm not doing a repetitive manual task.
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@aud @dave All of which goes into why I disagree with him vehemently *on this specific point*. But like, I also say some problematic and wildly untrue things sometimes — I try not to, but that's the result of being human, being loud, and being on the internet.
I cannot think of a single person I follow (present company included) who hasn't made me go "oh lordy" at least once and close the laptop lid.
I feel like this is an "oh lordy" moment for how I relate to Doctorow, I guess?
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social yeah... I'm not perfect by any means. But "purity culture" as a... AGH. And it just keeps happening with these highly visible merchants of takes. Ezra Klein*, now Doctorow...
* to be fair I don't think I've ever agreed with anything I've ever heard Klein say -
(What do I mean when I say I'm not open to changing my mind on the issue at the moment? I mean that when I've tried to be open minded, I get flooded with bad-faith bullshit and outright propaganda. My being closed-minded here is a temporary and reasoned position about conserving my own energies, and not letting people DDoS my rationality. I don't think that the Discourse
around LLMs is *currently* at a place where opposition to boosterism benefits from open-mindedness.)@xgranade brilliant, but even in taking this time to explain you’re still too kind.
I go straight to ‘Life’s Too Short’: If I fucking don’t know someone, trust them, respect them, I have (checks population) [zero divided by 8.3 billion] fucks to give about **them**, let alone anything they might have to say. #LifesTooShort
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@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social yeah... I'm not perfect by any means. But "purity culture" as a... AGH. And it just keeps happening with these highly visible merchants of takes. Ezra Klein*, now Doctorow...
* to be fair I don't think I've ever agreed with anything I've ever heard Klein say@aud @dave Yeah, the difference in that respect between Doctorow and Klein is that I respect Doctorow because he's right significantly more often than he's not (imho), and more importantly, when he's right he got there by reasoning through it and sharing that reasoning with others.
I'm perfectly fine, by comparison, thinking that the world in which Klein admits he's a furry and chills out a bit would be a better world than this one.
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@xgranade brilliant, but even in taking this time to explain you’re still too kind.
I go straight to ‘Life’s Too Short’: If I fucking don’t know someone, trust them, respect them, I have (checks population) [zero divided by 8.3 billion] fucks to give about **them**, let alone anything they might have to say. #LifesTooShort
@xgranade also, goddamn, 8.3 billion?
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@aud @dave Yeah, the difference in that respect between Doctorow and Klein is that I respect Doctorow because he's right significantly more often than he's not (imho), and more importantly, when he's right he got there by reasoning through it and sharing that reasoning with others.
I'm perfectly fine, by comparison, thinking that the world in which Klein admits he's a furry and chills out a bit would be a better world than this one.
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social I think I'm just gonna log off for a day or two. There's no coming back from "purity culture"
AGAIN, mike johnson is publicly abusing his son and controlling his sexuality. that's fucking "purity culture". christ
I can't with having "attempting to keep humans centered and cared for" compared to mike fucking johnson and all that controlling shit. -
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social I think I'm just gonna log off for a day or two. There's no coming back from "purity culture"
AGAIN, mike johnson is publicly abusing his son and controlling his sexuality. that's fucking "purity culture". christ
I can't with having "attempting to keep humans centered and cared for" compared to mike fucking johnson and all that controlling shit. -
(What do I mean when I say I'm not open to changing my mind on the issue at the moment? I mean that when I've tried to be open minded, I get flooded with bad-faith bullshit and outright propaganda. My being closed-minded here is a temporary and reasoned position about conserving my own energies, and not letting people DDoS my rationality. I don't think that the Discourse
around LLMs is *currently* at a place where opposition to boosterism benefits from open-mindedness.)@xgranade
"I don't think that the Discourse around LLMs is *currently* at a place where opposition to boosterism benefits from open-mindedness."
