No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture."
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@xgranade I was drafting a thing on principles at my factory job today.
I think at the front of that is probably going to be "having principles is good and important" because, yes, all of this.
By drafting, I mean specifically the critical front work of thinking about what I want to write, why, and what I find important to say.
The actual drafting comes when I'm not doing a repetitive manual task.
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@aud @dave All of which goes into why I disagree with him vehemently *on this specific point*. But like, I also say some problematic and wildly untrue things sometimes — I try not to, but that's the result of being human, being loud, and being on the internet.
I cannot think of a single person I follow (present company included) who hasn't made me go "oh lordy" at least once and close the laptop lid.
I feel like this is an "oh lordy" moment for how I relate to Doctorow, I guess?
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social yeah... I'm not perfect by any means. But "purity culture" as a... AGH. And it just keeps happening with these highly visible merchants of takes. Ezra Klein*, now Doctorow...
* to be fair I don't think I've ever agreed with anything I've ever heard Klein say -
(What do I mean when I say I'm not open to changing my mind on the issue at the moment? I mean that when I've tried to be open minded, I get flooded with bad-faith bullshit and outright propaganda. My being closed-minded here is a temporary and reasoned position about conserving my own energies, and not letting people DDoS my rationality. I don't think that the Discourse
around LLMs is *currently* at a place where opposition to boosterism benefits from open-mindedness.)@xgranade brilliant, but even in taking this time to explain you’re still too kind.
I go straight to ‘Life’s Too Short’: If I fucking don’t know someone, trust them, respect them, I have (checks population) [zero divided by 8.3 billion] fucks to give about **them**, let alone anything they might have to say. #LifesTooShort
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@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social yeah... I'm not perfect by any means. But "purity culture" as a... AGH. And it just keeps happening with these highly visible merchants of takes. Ezra Klein*, now Doctorow...
* to be fair I don't think I've ever agreed with anything I've ever heard Klein say@aud @dave Yeah, the difference in that respect between Doctorow and Klein is that I respect Doctorow because he's right significantly more often than he's not (imho), and more importantly, when he's right he got there by reasoning through it and sharing that reasoning with others.
I'm perfectly fine, by comparison, thinking that the world in which Klein admits he's a furry and chills out a bit would be a better world than this one.
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@xgranade brilliant, but even in taking this time to explain you’re still too kind.
I go straight to ‘Life’s Too Short’: If I fucking don’t know someone, trust them, respect them, I have (checks population) [zero divided by 8.3 billion] fucks to give about **them**, let alone anything they might have to say. #LifesTooShort
@xgranade also, goddamn, 8.3 billion?
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@aud @dave Yeah, the difference in that respect between Doctorow and Klein is that I respect Doctorow because he's right significantly more often than he's not (imho), and more importantly, when he's right he got there by reasoning through it and sharing that reasoning with others.
I'm perfectly fine, by comparison, thinking that the world in which Klein admits he's a furry and chills out a bit would be a better world than this one.
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social I think I'm just gonna log off for a day or two. There's no coming back from "purity culture"
AGAIN, mike johnson is publicly abusing his son and controlling his sexuality. that's fucking "purity culture". christ
I can't with having "attempting to keep humans centered and cared for" compared to mike fucking johnson and all that controlling shit. -
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social I think I'm just gonna log off for a day or two. There's no coming back from "purity culture"
AGAIN, mike johnson is publicly abusing his son and controlling his sexuality. that's fucking "purity culture". christ
I can't with having "attempting to keep humans centered and cared for" compared to mike fucking johnson and all that controlling shit. -
(What do I mean when I say I'm not open to changing my mind on the issue at the moment? I mean that when I've tried to be open minded, I get flooded with bad-faith bullshit and outright propaganda. My being closed-minded here is a temporary and reasoned position about conserving my own energies, and not letting people DDoS my rationality. I don't think that the Discourse
around LLMs is *currently* at a place where opposition to boosterism benefits from open-mindedness.)@xgranade
"I don't think that the Discourse around LLMs is *currently* at a place where opposition to boosterism benefits from open-mindedness." -
(What do I mean when I say I'm not open to changing my mind on the issue at the moment? I mean that when I've tried to be open minded, I get flooded with bad-faith bullshit and outright propaganda. My being closed-minded here is a temporary and reasoned position about conserving my own energies, and not letting people DDoS my rationality. I don't think that the Discourse
around LLMs is *currently* at a place where opposition to boosterism benefits from open-mindedness.)@xgranade in a better world, there is a use for having a bear (who made maul you, so careful when using the bear), there are identifiable, simple-use benefits based on the merits of a bear.
But in this world we live in now, not everyone needs a bear (who may maul you so careful when using the bear) at home, at work, at school, in your fridge, in your phone, your browser, etc.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade
Current LLM technology being shoved into everything with wild abandon and little oversight for a technology that is _still experimental and not mature_, is like committing to Main on Friday: It won't blow up on you every time, but it will blow up on you. -
@xgranade@wandering.shop @dave@alvarado.social the current speaker of the house keeps tab on how often his son fucking masturbates
fuck off with "purity culture" to refer to people who are trying to keep culture alive... while many of the same people are also castigated by the actual purity culture fuckers for "sexual deviancy". -
No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade It could only be "purity culture" if we were denying ourselves something useful to put ourselves at a disadvantage for moral reasons. That's not what's happening.
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No, it's twisted, invasive, and gross. Even for a conservative Christian household, that's weird and puritanical AF. The highly conservative Christians I grew up around would have objected, been icked out, and said it's between that person and their god.
And to be clear: I am talking about a full on climate denialist, evolution denialist, abusive and controlling, almost-church-deacon dad, and a mom who literally screamed like a tea kettle and then broke plates, ripped out her own hair, and tore her clothes while scream-chanting "no child of mine, no child of mine" after I told her I didn't believe anymore.
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No, it's twisted, invasive, and gross. Even for a conservative Christian household, that's weird and puritanical AF. The highly conservative Christians I grew up around would have objected, been icked out, and said it's between that person and their god.
And to be clear: I am talking about a full on climate denialist, evolution denialist, abusive and controlling, almost-church-deacon dad, and a mom who literally screamed like a tea kettle and then broke plates, ripped out her own hair, and tore her clothes while scream-chanting "no child of mine, no child of mine" after I told her I didn't believe anymore.
@hosford42 @aud @xgranade @dave
That's the point
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@xgranade My dude is torching his own credibility to use an LLM to check for typos.
TYPOS.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade@wandering.shop opposing LLMs is an integrity culture, not purity.
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@xgranade My dude is torching his own credibility to use an LLM to check for typos.
TYPOS.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
they want you to be compliant, not critical.
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No, opposing LLMs isn't "purity culture." I've seen this now from quite a few different people, and I disagree vehemently. It is good, actually, to have moral principles and hold to them, even when people with more money than you find said principles annoying.
@xgranade That take reminds me of the whole boycotts, strikes and protests are a privilege take that was going around in 2020/2021.
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Hell, if you disagree with me and think I'm wrong on the merits, then by all means make that argument! (Preferably not in my mentions, I'm tired of this whole debacle and am not personally open to changing my mind on LLMs right now.)
But "purity culture" isn't an argument, it's an appeal to the idea that holding principles is *bad*.
@xgranade Yes this! This! This is like the "radical centrists" (in Michael Hobbes and other folks usage) who spent years talking about abstract principals of "free speech" to rail against any public criticism of people saying odious things to avoid talking about whether those odious words mattered and what impact they had.
