“I poisoned my own mind.”
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@chroma wait why do you say this is not a great ending? what door is still open?
@glyph read the quoted paragraph, I will quote it again, with emphasis: “back to them in the future (…) doing them the right way”.
She suggests there’s a “right way” of doing LLMs.
This kind of person doesn’t learn anything, they still think it’s “a tool”. They still jerk off to the false and despicable idea of compressing days of work in seconds regarding creative endeavors.
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@glyph read the quoted paragraph, I will quote it again, with emphasis: “back to them in the future (…) doing them the right way”.
She suggests there’s a “right way” of doing LLMs.
This kind of person doesn’t learn anything, they still think it’s “a tool”. They still jerk off to the false and despicable idea of compressing days of work in seconds regarding creative endeavors.
@chroma "Maybe I can go back to them in future, ***starting from scratch*** and doing them the right way" (emphasis mine)
The author is suggesting that the ideas are now ruined by LLM residue, and that she needs to shelve them until she can forget the dispiriting sludge that they produced, doing them again by herself ***from scratch***, i.e. *NOT* using an LLM, but with the same *idea*.
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@chroma "Maybe I can go back to them in future, ***starting from scratch*** and doing them the right way" (emphasis mine)
The author is suggesting that the ideas are now ruined by LLM residue, and that she needs to shelve them until she can forget the dispiriting sludge that they produced, doing them again by herself ***from scratch***, i.e. *NOT* using an LLM, but with the same *idea*.
@chroma Even if the author actually held the position that you are suggesting, the suggestion that this "kind of person" is incapable of learning is bafflingly dismissive, given that this is at the end of a lucid exploration of a profound harm that LLMs can do. Presumably if they imagine some possible future valid use, it would be *vastly* different.
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@chroma "Maybe I can go back to them in future, ***starting from scratch*** and doing them the right way" (emphasis mine)
The author is suggesting that the ideas are now ruined by LLM residue, and that she needs to shelve them until she can forget the dispiriting sludge that they produced, doing them again by herself ***from scratch***, i.e. *NOT* using an LLM, but with the same *idea*.
@glyph My bad, I misunderstood that paragraph’s idea by reading diagonally and fast.
But I disagree, the only viable use of LLMs is multiline (5-10 max) autocomplete after extensive training with a specific repo tbh.
They’re just glorified autocomplete, any other use out of this is pure brain rot that isn’t far from Markov chains garbage.
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>well what did you expect, using the lie machine
why does saying this make someone part of the problem? what problem?
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@glyph My bad, I misunderstood that paragraph’s idea by reading diagonally and fast.
But I disagree, the only viable use of LLMs is multiline (5-10 max) autocomplete after extensive training with a specific repo tbh.
They’re just glorified autocomplete, any other use out of this is pure brain rot that isn’t far from Markov chains garbage.
@chroma My position is actually more maximalist than yours, apparently; I don't even think they should be used as autocomplete, certainly not as much as 10 lines at a time; that just creates an opportunity to gloss over 1-character bugs without even really boosting productivity much. I am not even sure that search autocomplete is safe https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4535163&__cf_chl_f_tk=jNrJBWpgluZQNLfU_zryzI22167PyWPRvLUGILwdQMA-1783179018-1.0.1.1-7Cazxa1x8rp3flYrUDPfOao56Hj5cZyOxqFV5zWTgn0
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@chroma My position is actually more maximalist than yours, apparently; I don't even think they should be used as autocomplete, certainly not as much as 10 lines at a time; that just creates an opportunity to gloss over 1-character bugs without even really boosting productivity much. I am not even sure that search autocomplete is safe https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4535163&__cf_chl_f_tk=jNrJBWpgluZQNLfU_zryzI22167PyWPRvLUGILwdQMA-1783179018-1.0.1.1-7Cazxa1x8rp3flYrUDPfOao56Hj5cZyOxqFV5zWTgn0
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@chroma my point is just that if a person *were* to hold such a position, dismissing their entire capacity to learn out of hand would be pretty extreme.
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After tech enthusiasts finally figured out how to build an ocean-drinking, sky-burning, human-poisoning, soul-dismantling machine just to try and push artists and creatives out of the picture, and one finally had the realization that their interests and processes aren't that different after all from artists.
I don't feel satisfaction, but I don't feel much sympathy either, as tech "progress" turns our planet into an ash heap and disintegrates what little culture we have left.
@contrasocial Elissa is an indie game developer and an artist on top of that? Not anywhere near your "tech-minded" stereotype.
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@chroma my point is just that if a person *were* to hold such a position, dismissing their entire capacity to learn out of hand would be pretty extreme.
@glyph I understand, it's just that I despise this technology so much that I become overly aggressive and reactive to everyone that holds a position that isn't "I hate it" or, at very least, "I hate it under its current form".
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@glyph I understand, it's just that I despise this technology so much that I become overly aggressive and reactive to everyone that holds a position that isn't "I hate it" or, at very least, "I hate it under its current form".
@chroma I can certainly sympathize, but if we want to be convincing (and, like, good people) we need to deal with those feelings of aggression in a more healthy way.
Have you seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y85nqc2zm7M by any chance? It's worth a watch.
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RE: https://eigenmagic.net/@vampiress/116859241032699772
“I poisoned my own mind.”
More and more programmers are writing retrospectives like this — and a huge THANK YOU to Elissa for doing so — where they discover that Programming Is Not Special.
It is particularly interesting to read this from a solo game developer who is both a programmer and an artist, who began by thinking the programing isn’t art, and discovered by an emotionally torturous process that it actually is.
@glyph I love this line: “no matter how many details you put in a prompt to an LLM, there are still decisions you’re ceding to it.”
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RE: https://eigenmagic.net/@vampiress/116859241032699772
“I poisoned my own mind.”
More and more programmers are writing retrospectives like this — and a huge THANK YOU to Elissa for doing so — where they discover that Programming Is Not Special.
It is particularly interesting to read this from a solo game developer who is both a programmer and an artist, who began by thinking the programing isn’t art, and discovered by an emotionally torturous process that it actually is.
@glyph Yes, *game* programming is clearly art, but some other kinds of programming might not be. Still, the boring, non-art programming is necessary for shipping usable software.
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@theartlav As far as I can tell, what gets in the way is looking at code as an industrial product. If one were to radically rip off the covers, and make code in some way easy to observe, a gallery-like thing could be realisable.
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RE: https://eigenmagic.net/@vampiress/116859241032699772
“I poisoned my own mind.”
More and more programmers are writing retrospectives like this — and a huge THANK YOU to Elissa for doing so — where they discover that Programming Is Not Special.
It is particularly interesting to read this from a solo game developer who is both a programmer and an artist, who began by thinking the programing isn’t art, and discovered by an emotionally torturous process that it actually is.
@glyph there's this episode early in Sousou no Frieren where Frieren says that it didn't have to be magic that she dedicated her life to, it just happened to be, but now that she has, it matters to her
that was helpful for us
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RE: https://eigenmagic.net/@vampiress/116859241032699772
“I poisoned my own mind.”
More and more programmers are writing retrospectives like this — and a huge THANK YOU to Elissa for doing so — where they discover that Programming Is Not Special.
It is particularly interesting to read this from a solo game developer who is both a programmer and an artist, who began by thinking the programing isn’t art, and discovered by an emotionally torturous process that it actually is.
@glyph (a software architect with 30 years in the industry here) I have also made a few prototypes that would take me forever to code by hand. Claude just made them in a few hours. Honestly, I wouldn't even have started most of them.
My outcome is different from what Elissa says. It's been fun at first, as I didn't use LLM before, and it's still fun now, as one of the projects is production ready, and I'm actually using it. The others aren't ready, but only because the engineering task is difficult and I haven't figured out the solution yet. But it's still fun. Of course there are boring parts, like telling the clanker that it forgot to update the documentation, or other things, and please update your bloody agents.md so that you remember next time.
So, overall, it's been a useful tool for me and it saved me tons of time. Awesome result for side projects that will never be commercialized.
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@glyph (a software architect with 30 years in the industry here) I have also made a few prototypes that would take me forever to code by hand. Claude just made them in a few hours. Honestly, I wouldn't even have started most of them.
My outcome is different from what Elissa says. It's been fun at first, as I didn't use LLM before, and it's still fun now, as one of the projects is production ready, and I'm actually using it. The others aren't ready, but only because the engineering task is difficult and I haven't figured out the solution yet. But it's still fun. Of course there are boring parts, like telling the clanker that it forgot to update the documentation, or other things, and please update your bloody agents.md so that you remember next time.
So, overall, it's been a useful tool for me and it saved me tons of time. Awesome result for side projects that will never be commercialized.
@bonkers even if you don’t come around to write such a post yourself in a year, you should still probably refrain from using them for a whole host of reasons, not least of which is that giving money to claude is giving money to elon musk
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@bonkers even if you don’t come around to write such a post yourself in a year, you should still probably refrain from using them for a whole host of reasons, not least of which is that giving money to claude is giving money to elon musk
@glyph I agree it's a dilemma, and I hope that the bubble bursts soon. Also, if I had to pay the full price of LLM, I'd refrain from using it at all.
In my defense, these are nonprofit projects for the public good. They can easily be continued without the slop engine.
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@glyph I agree it's a dilemma, and I hope that the bubble bursts soon. Also, if I had to pay the full price of LLM, I'd refrain from using it at all.
In my defense, these are nonprofit projects for the public good. They can easily be continued without the slop engine.
@glyph besides, Starlinks are the only reliable means of communication at the front lines in Ukraine. Even that they sponsor Musk, they're saving lives.
The world is fucked, and we have to use a tool that works right now.
