This sums up my biggest beef with other anarchists.
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@malte I think the question of authority is interesting. As I see it, authority is about letting society be shaped from above. The upper echelons decides for those underneath which decides for those underneath.
Ideally society should be governed upwards through communes. communes should elect coordinators to achieve collaboration between communes. The coordinators are thus advicors rather than authorities.
@vegafjord This repeats what I believe is a misunderstanding of authority. What you're describing is called dominance. Which is a form of authority, but not the only - it's illegitimate authority from above.
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@malte We can also look at the conductor of an orchestra. Isn't this authority? We don't have to. We can view this as a coordinator or a representative. Imagine if the players came to a conductor and said, "we appreciate your work with us, but we have found somebody that fits our needs better, so we'll have to let you go." In this case the conductor doesn't have authority, but is a representative.
@vegafjord My uncle played in an orchestra so I have some data on this particular issue. Sometimes he told me the orchestra simply ignored a conductor that didn't have an appropriate attunement to the music. The very act of ignoring the conductor takes away their authority. The musicians make do with what they know, ie. take authority.
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I could phrase my position in different ways. I'll try one that is close to the slogan here. In my world, anarchy means to break from our dependency on and rebellion against external authority by taking up our own authority - and creating structures that help everyone do the same. The confusion around authority is the main problem and getting authority right for everyone is the solution.
Another way to say this in terms more close to many anarchists is empowerment. That's authority. In other words, it's absolutely central to the promise of anarchy. I think any political tradition has conceptual problems which it gets confused and which is also at the core of its promise. Authority is that core for anarchists. Of we solve that issue in practice, we will win. A first step is to clear up our misunderstanding of the concept.
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Another way to say this in terms more close to many anarchists is empowerment. That's authority. In other words, it's absolutely central to the promise of anarchy. I think any political tradition has conceptual problems which it gets confused and which is also at the core of its promise. Authority is that core for anarchists. Of we solve that issue in practice, we will win. A first step is to clear up our misunderstanding of the concept.
Other similar terms that I would say are different versions of authority is power-to, power-from-within and power-together. That's authority.
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Other similar terms that I would say are different versions of authority is power-to, power-from-within and power-together. That's authority.
The test whether something has authority is whether it is able to change the direction of where the energy is currently going (energy could be anything people are doing, saying or focusing on). Of course you can force people to do, say or focus on things even if they secretly (or explicitly) resent you. Illegitimate authority exists.
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The test whether something has authority is whether it is able to change the direction of where the energy is currently going (energy could be anything people are doing, saying or focusing on). Of course you can force people to do, say or focus on things even if they secretly (or explicitly) resent you. Illegitimate authority exists.
But there's also the authority of inspiring action - when we follow along someone who got something right. When we shut up and listen (from a free place!) because an older and more experienced person finally speaks in a group of beginners - that's legitimate authority. That person probably has useful input if we decide to listen from a free place. Or follow the inspiring person from a free place. If we want power from below, this is exactly the kind of connectedness we should cultivate.
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But there's also the authority of inspiring action - when we follow along someone who got something right. When we shut up and listen (from a free place!) because an older and more experienced person finally speaks in a group of beginners - that's legitimate authority. That person probably has useful input if we decide to listen from a free place. Or follow the inspiring person from a free place. If we want power from below, this is exactly the kind of connectedness we should cultivate.
The irony is that anarchists have so many issues with illegitimate authority from above (dominance) that many anarchists end up compulsively rebelling and resisting any kind of authority - even potentially legitime ones. And no, if the rebellion is compulsive, it's not from a free place. Compulsions like that likely means you're fighting your own ghosts (or your own inner potential for authority!).
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@vegafjord My uncle played in an orchestra so I have some data on this particular issue. Sometimes he told me the orchestra simply ignored a conductor that didn't have an appropriate attunement to the music. The very act of ignoring the conductor takes away their authority. The musicians make do with what they know, ie. take authority.
@malte @vegafjord as I understand it many orchestras have a sort of audition for conductors. So in that case it's the orchestra that give the conductor their authority if the orchestra agrees to.
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@malte @vegafjord as I understand it many orchestras have a sort of audition for conductors. So in that case it's the orchestra that give the conductor their authority if the orchestra agrees to.
Currently, the concert band I play in (Lyngby Taarbæk harmoniorkester) don't have a conductor associated with the orchestra, so we engage different conductors from project to project.
And it is the board (chosen from the members of the orchestra) that decides upon which conductor to use again, based on input.
We're not a professional orchestra though, but the conductors are.
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The irony is that anarchists have so many issues with illegitimate authority from above (dominance) that many anarchists end up compulsively rebelling and resisting any kind of authority - even potentially legitime ones. And no, if the rebellion is compulsive, it's not from a free place. Compulsions like that likely means you're fighting your own ghosts (or your own inner potential for authority!).
@malte I think we should settle the definition before going into argumentation. How exactly would you define authority?
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@malte I think we should settle the definition before going into argumentation. How exactly would you define authority?
@malte I will say that I don't agree that we should feel empowered, because we shouldn't let society be about power. When we let society be about power, managing society becomes a struggle of competition.
Rather, we should let society be about force. We should feel strenghtened, but not empowered. We should strive to dismantle might, dismantle downwardship; and instead strive for community, upwardship, commons. Then managing society becomes a struggle of cooperation.
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@malte I will say that I don't agree that we should feel empowered, because we shouldn't let society be about power. When we let society be about power, managing society becomes a struggle of competition.
Rather, we should let society be about force. We should feel strenghtened, but not empowered. We should strive to dismantle might, dismantle downwardship; and instead strive for community, upwardship, commons. Then managing society becomes a struggle of cooperation.
@vegafjord I'm curious how you discriminate between power and force. Am I right in getting that power always entails competition and dominance?
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@malte I think we should settle the definition before going into argumentation. How exactly would you define authority?
@vegafjord My working definition of authority is the ability to change or influence the direction of where animal energy is going.
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@malte @vegafjord as I understand it many orchestras have a sort of audition for conductors. So in that case it's the orchestra that give the conductor their authority if the orchestra agrees to.
@reynir In this case, an internationally renowned symphony orchestra, there were often guest conductors or temporary "resident conductors" working on particular themes. However those conductors get chosen, what I got from my uncle is that sometimes the orchestra learned they did a better job by just going with what they know and get on with the programme. If the conductor is there for a short while, you can live it. A long-term conductor with lacking authority is obviously an issue @vegafjord
