I think #Signal seems to be a really good app.
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@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
Signal can mathematically know who talks to whom, when, who sends images, what groups exist, because those are all direct connections from the app to the server. This means the US government has the possibility to know all of this. Signal is excellent but you have to do your homework and know your threat model: if US authorities are on the "malicious" part of it then Signal isn't a solution -
@leanderlindahl Even worse: Signal has to use AWS for their world wide deployment as only those Hyperscalers are able to provide this kind of service around the world.
There are some big European players like OVH or Hetzner but none of them can provide data centers on every continent.
There’s simply no European solution at the moment.
@kaibojens @leanderlindahl
Don't fall for the lies. Instant messaging doesn't need hyperscalers. Audio and video conferencing doesn't need hyperscalers, they need good network. Signal excusing itself with "we need hyperscalers" is just an excuse for centralizing all the communications. We don't need european hyperscalers because we don't need centralized communications. -
I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl also it demands a phone number (SIM card) to set up an account, which is the antithesis to be able to have undercover communication in upcoming fascism and surveillance states
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Signal can mathematically know who talks to whom, when, who sends images, what groups exist, because those are all direct connections from the app to the server. This means the US government has the possibility to know all of this. Signal is excellent but you have to do your homework and know your threat model: if US authorities are on the "malicious" part of it then Signal isn't a solution
@rakoo privacy != anonymity
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@rakoo privacy != anonymity
@Distante sentences >> words -
@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
@Distante Aside from @delta you also have @matrix and @threemaapp
There is also @briar
Delta I like because it is decentralized and has a KISS approach.
https://blog.feld.me/posts/2025/03/deltachat-is-actually-good-though/
Thats not saying the others are bad. Threema is centralized which I personally would rather avoid. It means a SPOF
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I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl
Yes.
A good, secure and simple german alternative to WhatsApp and Signal is #deltachat
https://delta.chat/
They are in the fediverse too:
@delta -
@Distante sentences >> words
@rakoo Anonymity, privacy and security are different things
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@Distante Aside from @delta you also have @matrix and @threemaapp
There is also @briar
Delta I like because it is decentralized and has a KISS approach.
https://blog.feld.me/posts/2025/03/deltachat-is-actually-good-though/
Thats not saying the others are bad. Threema is centralized which I personally would rather avoid. It means a SPOF
@rraggl @delta @matrix @threemaapp @briar That's great. How many of your friends have you persuaded to pay for the app or learn about decentralisation?
No one is looking for anonymity. People want privacy at best
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@rakoo Anonymity, privacy and security are different things
@Distante yes, and in the context of the discussion when the US gov declares you as an enemy signal might provide security but not the others -
I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl do you have any idea for a good alternative? I've been testing two:
Briar: https://briarproject.org/
and
Delta Chat: https://delta.chat/en/ -
@leanderlindahl do you have any idea for a good alternative? I've been testing two:
Briar: https://briarproject.org/
and
Delta Chat: https://delta.chat/en/@benjamim I hesitate to name alternatives because I'm not a security expert. But for messaging with friends and family there are a number of alternatives.
https://european-alternatives.eu/category/instant-messaging-appsThere seems be a consensus that #delta @delta offers the same level of security as Signal, but I'm sure someone will hit me in the head now with facts to the contrary.
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@benjamim I hesitate to name alternatives because I'm not a security expert. But for messaging with friends and family there are a number of alternatives.
https://european-alternatives.eu/category/instant-messaging-appsThere seems be a consensus that #delta @delta offers the same level of security as Signal, but I'm sure someone will hit me in the head now with facts to the contrary.
@leanderlindahl @delta "someone will hit me in the head"
ok ok thank you anyway 
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@benjamim I hesitate to name alternatives because I'm not a security expert. But for messaging with friends and family there are a number of alternatives.
https://european-alternatives.eu/category/instant-messaging-appsThere seems be a consensus that #delta @delta offers the same level of security as Signal, but I'm sure someone will hit me in the head now with facts to the contrary.
@leanderlindahl @benjamim @delta Signal has fancier encryption and I believe less metadata, but do you really want to trust them? Unless I'm missing something, Signal tries to store your keys on their server with a six digit PIN. I don't see why they can't just brute force that
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@leanderlindahl @benjamim @delta Signal has fancier encryption and I believe less metadata, but do you really want to trust them? Unless I'm missing something, Signal tries to store your keys on their server with a six digit PIN. I don't see why they can't just brute force that
@ben @leanderlindahl I'm trying to avoid American products as much as possible. Signal uses infrastructure from AWS, GCE and Azure.
This way I'm looking for a easy alternative (non-tech) to Signal. And @delta looks really good. -
@ben @leanderlindahl I'm trying to avoid American products as much as possible. Signal uses infrastructure from AWS, GCE and Azure.
This way I'm looking for a easy alternative (non-tech) to Signal. And @delta looks really good.@benjamim @leanderlindahl @delta Delta Chat is true freedom
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@rraggl @delta @matrix @threemaapp @briar That's great. How many of your friends have you persuaded to pay for the app or learn about decentralisation?
No one is looking for anonymity. People want privacy at best
@Distante @delta @matrix @threemaapp @briar
Working on it... One by one, bit by bit. It's not a one time action, it's a process.
And I am more than willing to pay the fee if they prefer Threema.
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I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl well yes, but as they say: the perfect is the enemy of the good. If we were to exclude anyone who relies on AWS (even European alternatives to US tech giants), we'd have precious little to nothing left.
It's a net positive to migrate from Whatsapp to Signal so that counts as a win in my book. Let's redirect our efforts to other apps/fields where switching is easier/more urgent. For example, I just today found out that there's a Nürnberg-based software firm that makes a drop-in replacement for MS Office. Yeah, https://www.softmaker.de/ is closed source and Libreoffice is not, but Softmaker's suite has basically zero switching cost and LibreOffice works, but it UI is stuck in the 90s.
Or take Wero. I'd be so happy if we could establish it as a PayPal alternative
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@leanderlindahl well yes, but as they say: the perfect is the enemy of the good. If we were to exclude anyone who relies on AWS (even European alternatives to US tech giants), we'd have precious little to nothing left.
It's a net positive to migrate from Whatsapp to Signal so that counts as a win in my book. Let's redirect our efforts to other apps/fields where switching is easier/more urgent. For example, I just today found out that there's a Nürnberg-based software firm that makes a drop-in replacement for MS Office. Yeah, https://www.softmaker.de/ is closed source and Libreoffice is not, but Softmaker's suite has basically zero switching cost and LibreOffice works, but it UI is stuck in the 90s.
Or take Wero. I'd be so happy if we could establish it as a PayPal alternative
@timon in what way does switching to Signal promote European digital sovereignty? It does not.
I'm fine with you liking the app, promoting the app and pointing out it has amazing encryption and UX. That still doesn't promote European independence in the tech sector. You're free use it as much as you want.
But don't brand it as European digital sovereignty. It means users switch to another US product instead of a European product and European products in that space don't grow the user base.
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@timon in what way does switching to Signal promote European digital sovereignty? It does not.
I'm fine with you liking the app, promoting the app and pointing out it has amazing encryption and UX. That still doesn't promote European independence in the tech sector. You're free use it as much as you want.
But don't brand it as European digital sovereignty. It means users switch to another US product instead of a European product and European products in that space don't grow the user base.
@leanderlindahl you're right of course, sorry. I came at this from a "anything's better than supporting US tech giants" point of view. My primary concern is not with European digital sovereignty.
If that's what you're after, maybe give Matrix a shot. I doubt it'll be widely adopted as a whatsapp replacement, but it is a very mature E2E chat and call protocol and decentralized network.
Germany is currently adapting it for use in its Bundesmessenger (https://element.io/de/matrix-in-germany/projects/bundesmessenger) for administrative use and the French have already rolled it out to 600k civil servants: https://media.ccc.de/v/matrix-conf-2025-74487-matrix-french-gov-deployment-opening-a-private-federation-securely
